Russian invasion of Ukraine

[The Stormbringer]

The problem with "Don't increase the divide" is that it's the same idea of people going through abusive relationships. You can't nice your way through someone's insane amount of ignorance and shitty attitude, it can't be done. You being nice to your abusive parent won't suddenly make them stop beating you, you being nice to the racists won't suddenly make them stop wanting you dead.

Whaaat?! But all those Lifetime movies told me that they were just confused, misinformed, had a rough exterior, were traumatized, etcetera, and secretly have a heart of gold! If I'm nice enough to them, they'll realize what they're doing and change their ways!

[Voidism]

I like how you equate human rights to the colour of a scarf. Very serious take.

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.
That's what's so messed up. This hiding behind "human rights" bs. One can be pro trans rights but also pro intactness of kids until they can drink, go to war and decide to marry. AKA kid's rights.
My trans rights do not go away just because we acknowledge the reality of the two sexes.

Just as an example of what I have seen some Americans go on about. Something that's not at all controversial to say in my country, on the left. BY US.

_ _

That said, my whole point with what I wrote is this: yes, you can keep on about how everyone who's not pro everything x is evil (same goes for MAGA folks too btw, and I do engage them but this forum is not exactly full of them) and deny their humanity but they do have a voice. Regardless of what you think of them, their voices still count. In fact, I often think it's not really the issues they care about. It's to give the institutions a "fuck you!" - Trump was incredibly weak as a president.

So if you are serious about wanting to increase support to Ukraine you need to put aside your internal issues when on threads that are about other countries and see that you do have people on the right who want to support Ukraine. In fact, only a minority in your congress and senate are against it on the right.

[Elegiac]

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.
That's what's so messed up. This hiding behind "human rights" bs. One can be pro trans rights but also pro intactness of kids until they can drink, go to war and decide to marry. AKA kid's rights.
My trans rights do not go away just because we acknowledge the reality of the two sexes.

Just as an example of what I have seen some Americans go on about. Something that's not at all controversial to say in my country, on the left. BY US.

Ok, Blaire White.

"One can be pro-trans rights but also still believe in medical gatekeeping on the basis of shit that only happens in extreme cases and is in no way the norm."

That said, my whole point with what I wrote is this: yes, you can keep on about how everyone who's not pro everything x is evil (same goes for MAGA folks too btw, and I do engage them but this forum is not exactly full of them) and deny their humanity but they do have a voice. Regardless of what you think of them, their voices still count. In fact, I often think it's not really the issues they care about. It's to give the institutions a "fuck you!" - Trump was incredibly weak as a president.

This is just massively ignorant of the way conservatism works in general, but also specifically how it works in the US.

[Gabriel]

June 20 (Reuters) - The Pentagon found it had overestimated the amount of funding for ammunition, missiles and other equipment it sent to Ukraine by $6.2 billion due to an accounting error, a spokesperson said on Tuesday, more than double the amount previously disclosed.

The value of the accounting error was revised up from the $3 billion that was first reported by Reuters in May, the result of assigning a higher-than-warranted value on U.S. weaponry shipped to Ukraine.

Additional funding was uncovered as Pentagon officials researched the situation more thoroughly and clarified protocols for valuing equipment based on Financial Management Regulation and Department of Defense policy, Pentagon deputy press secretary Sabrina Singh said.

Looks like US found some pocket change under the sofa cushions to give for Ukraine.

[Elegiac]

This is exactly how I feel but you were braver than me to say it. It's why, when I visit my parents overseas, these issues, as you said, are not as controversial and I feel I can just relax so much more over there.

"These issues" i.e. "my opinions."

And I wonder for what possible reason your opinions could be considered controversial.

[Mekh]

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.

[and further nonsense]

Considering none of that shit happens, it's been proven that none of that shit happens and you know none of that shit happens, I'm just gonna report for trolling and forbidden topics I guess.

[Kallisto]

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.
That's what's so messed up. This hiding behind "human rights" bs. One can be pro trans rights but also pro intactness of kids until they can drink, go to war and decide to marry. AKA kid's rights.
My trans rights do not go away just because we acknowledge the reality of the two sexes.

Just as an example of what I have seen some Americans go on about. Something that's not at all controversial to say in my country, on the left. BY US.

I'll take things that do not happen for $5000

As a trans person here's what me and most of us want for kids. For those who are trans (Yes we fucking know or at least suspect by the time we're starting puberty.) to be able to receive a medication that has been in use since before 90% of the forums were born called puberty blockers. That are entirely reversible if a child who thinks they're trans realises that they are not. Then when they become an adult, if they're still on the medication (you know around 18) they can go on HRT and not have to go through a puberty that is terrifying, harmful and distressing. Also we want for kids to be accepted for who they are and make sure that they're in environments where they are safe.

[Elder Millennial]

June 20 (Reuters) - The Pentagon found it had overestimated the amount of funding for ammunition, missiles and other equipment it sent to Ukraine by $6.2 billion due to an accounting error, a spokesperson said on Tuesday, more than double the amount previously disclosed.

The value of the accounting error was revised up from the $3 billion that was first reported by Reuters in May, the result of assigning a higher-than-warranted value on U.S. weaponry shipped to Ukraine.

Additional funding was uncovered as Pentagon officials researched the situation more thoroughly and clarified protocols for valuing equipment based on Financial Management Regulation and Department of Defense policy, Pentagon deputy press secretary Sabrina Singh said.

Looks like US found some pocket change under the sofa cushions to give for Ukraine.

When it comes to the Pentagon 6.2 billion is literally a rounding error. They lost more on misplaced triple A batteries and office supplies than they have given Ukraine.

[Voidism]

This is exactly how I feel but you were braver than me to say it. It's why, when I visit my parents overseas, these issues, as you said, are not as controversial and I feel I can just relax so much more over there.

That's how most sane people feel. Loud mouths frothing on the internet is fortunately not the norm IRL. They will lie, cheat and try to pressure folks to accept their views.
They are willing to sacrifice support for Ukraine for it. They are unable to think beyond themselves, beyond America, funnily enough. That's how deeply immoral they are.

Note how they try to make you feel small, part of the minority. Kinda like how putin's propaganda works - making people too afraid to say anything because everyone think everyone else thinks one thing. "Everyone thinks" "no one thinks that" "that never happens!" - without actually arguing anything. Sometimes they do send some vague data captured 10 years ago on the internet, hidden behind a veil of professionalism. That's how abusers work. "This is x rights, or else!" "STEP IN LINE"

The same is true for the "MAGA" crowd. But they are fortunately not here (mostly). They too want to steal people's voices - people who are disenfranchised for many reasons. They want to be the sole right wing voice. These sides feed off of the people, and work in symbiosis together.

Look how easily they reacted, so quickly. So forcefully. They do NOT like people stepping out of line. Fortunately I have gotten through 15 years of psychiatric care and I'm too robust to be heckled. :P

I can imagine teens on the internet, with all hormones and wanting to fit in, falling for this easily.

And this brings me back to Ukraine: there are real people dying there. I think many, regardless of if you're right wing or left wing, can see that making Ukraine win is of the highest priority. Here's a good piece by a right wing Ukraine supporter, criticizing Jordan Peterson.

[qwerty123456]

Not just is all of that true, the outreach thing doesn't work. Last year I had to cut out a friend. Friend as in known him for years, seen photos of all his nephews. It was back around the Supreme Court RvW leak. Whenever the friend group's discussion topic started to move un the direction of "politics", by which I mean our gay friend in a red state expressing concerns about the continues recognition of his marriage or one of the ladies explaining how she would be dead without abortion access, he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

So at some point where way over half our group was starting to feel extremely uncomfortable around him and the policies he seemed to endorse with silence (and him trying to feel shunned about it), I took him aside, explained the concerns and fears of our way over 50% female and/or LGBTQ friend group and he did the only sensible thing:

He doubled down. It's the Dems' fault. They are moving left all the time! (Hi Winter Blossom!) When I asked him for examples he said CRT. When I asked him to define CRT, he couldn't. I asked him if he maybe wants to read up in things before having an opinion, he got defensive. So the circle voted with a heavy heart to kick him out.

A year later, for the anniversary of the whole thing, I figured the GOP had gone far enough from hugely problematic to Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain evil in its rhetoric and proposed bills, I could ask him if he still felt the same, maybe admit some fault even. Deafening silence. Nothing. Not a peep.

And he was one of those guys you'd probably tentatively call "one of the good ones". There's probably a whole lot more under this already ridiculously low bar.

EDIT: also to bring this back on topic: the decent people are as little responsible for MAGAts going full fash because we didn't drip enough honey in their ears, as Ukraine and NATO are responsible for Putin also deciding to go full fash. The reason people in the US want to stop support for Ukraine is their shared desire for full fash.

Except it does work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

You also literally have Russians fighting for the Ukrainians atm because when the Ukrainians captured them they weren't total dicks to them and showed them what Russia told them were lies. You think that if the did the raping and torture that the Russians are doing they would have gotten any of the Russians to side with them? NO it would have made the Russians even worse than they are because now they have real justifications.

You do realize you did the opposite of outreach right? You continued to bring up "politics"( in your words) around them when they were clearly uncomfortable with it and kept pushing them until they got defensive and then you felt the need to attack them and eventually kick them out of the group. Then a year later you taunted the guy by trying to have him admit he was wrong since his "side" went even more crazy. Even if your "politics" are "correct"/morally right You molded that guy into a Maga with your actions(atleast from what you have stated).

[Mekh]

You do realize you did the opposite of outreach right? You continued to bring up "politics"( in your words) around them when they were clearly uncomfortable with it and kept pushing them until they got defensive and then you felt the need to attack them and eventually kick them out of the group. Then a year later you taunted the guy by trying to have him admit he was wrong since his "side" went even more crazy. Even if your "politics" are "correct"/morally right You molded that guy into a Maga with your actions(atleast from what you have stated).

The LGBTQ people in our circle of friends expressing fear for their lives is not "bringing up politics". Him getting defensive over that really told us enough and we should have acted sooner if anything.

[qwerty123456]

The LGBTQ people in our circle of friends expressing fear for their lives is not "bringing up politics". Him getting defensive over that really told us enough and we should have acted sooner if anything.

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".

[Mekh]

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".

They didn't feel safe around him. Him not going after them directly, but gladly voting for the party that would was the same to them. Because it is.

As for the clipped part: yeah, checking in if a former friend fell down the alt-right rabbit hole completely after losing what was probably his only source of non-rightoid news, was at the end of a day a kindness.

[Elegiac]

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".

"You were wrong to not make your space welcoming for people who indirectly support bigotry " is such a weak ass argument, rofl.

[Mekh]

"You were wrong to not make your space welcoming for people who indirectly support bigotry " is such a weak ass argument, rofl.

"Friends, I know he's voting the party who wants to put you on a train, but he'd also help you move!"

[qwerty123456]

They didn't feel safe around him. Him not going after them directly, but gladly voting for the party that would was the same to them. Because it is.

As for the clipped part: yeah, checking in if a former friend fell down the alt-right rabbit hole completely after losing what was probably his only source of non-rightoid news, was at the end of a day a kindness.

You said he only got uncomfortable when they brought up "politics".
The part you clipped was the Ukrainians treating the Russians like people and not monsters and Daryl Davis the guy who converted like 200+ KKK members.

"You were wrong to not make your space welcoming for people who indirectly support bigotry " is such a weak ass argument, rofl.

Did I say that? Do I need to be your friend because you are constantly being an asshole to people on the internet(and prob real life?) No I don't. But if you were already my friend I sure as shit wouldn't keep bringing up shit that bothers you and if I did and you changed from being silent to something worse I wouldn't try and deny my responsibility in changing you.

[Mekh]

You said he only got uncomfortable when they brought up "politics".

Whenever the friend group's discussion topic started to move un the direction of "politics", by which I mean our gay friend in a red state expressing concerns about the continues recognition of his marriage or one of the ladies explaining how she would be dead without abortion access

You absolute tool. He got uncomfortable when confronted with the consequences of his choices.

[qwerty123456]

You absolute tool.

Yea? Can you not read what you yourself wrote? "he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

According to your own words he got uncomfortable. He didn't say I don't agree with you.

But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.

[Mekh]

Yea? Can you not read what you yourself wrote? "he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

According to your own words he got uncomfortable. He didn't say I don't agree with you.

When one guy writes about how he might have to move states, because he isn't sure his marriage remains legal after the next election and the other guy, who claims to be his friend, says "can we please not talk about politics!?" Yeah, that's just a bigot who doesn't want to feel guilty.

[Elegiac]

Did I say that? Do I need to be your friend because you are constantly being an asshole to people on the internet(and prob real life?) No I don't. But if you were already my friend I sure as shit wouldn't keep bringing up shit that bothers you and if I did and you changed from being silent to something worse I wouldn't try and deny my responsibility in changing you.

Why do you think it's more important to value the comfort of someone who has an issue with people expressing concern over their own welfare (and then proceeds to spout right wing talking points when confronted over it) rather than the people whose welfare is being endangered, exactly?