Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Mekh]

You do realize you did the opposite of outreach right? You continued to bring up "politics"( in your words) around them when they were clearly uncomfortable with it and kept pushing them until they got defensive and then you felt the need to attack them and eventually kick them out of the group. Then a year later you taunted the guy by trying to have him admit he was wrong since his "side" went even more crazy. Even if your "politics" are "correct"/morally right You molded that guy into a Maga with your actions(atleast from what you have stated).

The LGBTQ people in our circle of friends expressing fear for their lives is not "bringing up politics". Him getting defensive over that really told us enough and we should have acted sooner if anything.

[qwerty123456]

The LGBTQ people in our circle of friends expressing fear for their lives is not "bringing up politics". Him getting defensive over that really told us enough and we should have acted sooner if anything.

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".

[Mekh]

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".

They didn't feel safe around him. Him not going after them directly, but gladly voting for the party that would was the same to them. Because it is.

As for the clipped part: yeah, checking in if a former friend fell down the alt-right rabbit hole completely after losing what was probably his only source of non-rightoid news, was at the end of a day a kindness.

[Elegiac]

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".

"You were wrong to not make your space welcoming for people who indirectly support bigotry " is such a weak ass argument, rofl.

[Mekh]

"You were wrong to not make your space welcoming for people who indirectly support bigotry " is such a weak ass argument, rofl.

"Friends, I know he's voting the party who wants to put you on a train, but he'd also help you move!"

[qwerty123456]

They didn't feel safe around him. Him not going after them directly, but gladly voting for the party that would was the same to them. Because it is.

As for the clipped part: yeah, checking in if a former friend fell down the alt-right rabbit hole completely after losing what was probably his only source of non-rightoid news, was at the end of a day a kindness.

You said he only got uncomfortable when they brought up "politics".
The part you clipped was the Ukrainians treating the Russians like people and not monsters and Daryl Davis the guy who converted like 200+ KKK members.

"You were wrong to not make your space welcoming for people who indirectly support bigotry " is such a weak ass argument, rofl.

Did I say that? Do I need to be your friend because you are constantly being an asshole to people on the internet(and prob real life?) No I don't. But if you were already my friend I sure as shit wouldn't keep bringing up shit that bothers you and if I did and you changed from being silent to something worse I wouldn't try and deny my responsibility in changing you.

[Mekh]

You said he only got uncomfortable when they brought up "politics".

Whenever the friend group's discussion topic started to move un the direction of "politics", by which I mean our gay friend in a red state expressing concerns about the continues recognition of his marriage or one of the ladies explaining how she would be dead without abortion access

You absolute tool. He got uncomfortable when confronted with the consequences of his choices.

[qwerty123456]

You absolute tool.

Yea? Can you not read what you yourself wrote? "he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

According to your own words he got uncomfortable. He didn't say I don't agree with you.

But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.

[Mekh]

Yea? Can you not read what you yourself wrote? "he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

According to your own words he got uncomfortable. He didn't say I don't agree with you.

When one guy writes about how he might have to move states, because he isn't sure his marriage remains legal after the next election and the other guy, who claims to be his friend, says "can we please not talk about politics!?" Yeah, that's just a bigot who doesn't want to feel guilty.

[Elegiac]

Did I say that? Do I need to be your friend because you are constantly being an asshole to people on the internet(and prob real life?) No I don't. But if you were already my friend I sure as shit wouldn't keep bringing up shit that bothers you and if I did and you changed from being silent to something worse I wouldn't try and deny my responsibility in changing you.

Why do you think it's more important to value the comfort of someone who has an issue with people expressing concern over their own welfare (and then proceeds to spout right wing talking points when confronted over it) rather than the people whose welfare is being endangered, exactly?

[Voidism]

I found this interesting:

[Mekh]

But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.

You seem to labor under the impression that POC or LGBTQ people or even allies have the responsibility to make bigots stop being deplorable, like they don't have agency of their own. This guy was surrounded by LGBTQ people for two years and they treated him with nothing but decency and it did nothing to change his heart.

[Elegiac]

But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.

And here's why mentioning Daryl Davis is not in fact a refutation of the point:

"We have to accept that realistically, persuading all the bigots is just not an option. Yes, we should convince as many people as possible, but there will always be bigots - and mocking them, shaming them, or boycotting them is a perfectly valid strategy.

Does that mean that when we cancel bigots we're acting kind of like them? No. You would only think that if you're a total moral relativist. And, controversial opinion, bigotry is shameful and it should be shamed. If you're testing out some racist ideas in your head, you might feel afraid to express them publicly for fear of being shamed or judged. Is that because we live in an Orwellian dystopia that punishes people for wrongthink? No. It's because racism is dangerous and shameful, and you should be ashamed of it, and the people judging you are right to do so.

And sure, there are some very patient people who devote their lives to deradicalizing bigots which is a perfectly noble thing to do. There's a guy named Daryl Davis who's befriended members of the Ku Klux Klan for over 30 years, and he claims he's convinced more than 200 of them to leave. And good for him. Deradicalization is a perfectly valid strategy. But it cannot be the only strategy, and it must not be the primary strategy. Because we're not going to defeat racism by telling Black people to be a little nicer to racists. Feminists would be wasting their time trying to convince Andrew Tate to respect women. In general, the massive effort that it takes to 'maybe' persuade bigots is better spent persuading other people not to listen to them."

"You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.

[Iphie]

I found this interesting:

Ah, Misha, he's a good source for an honest look at russia. He's funny too.

[qwerty123456]

When one guy writes about how he might have to move states, because he isn't sure his marriage remains legal after the next election and the other guy, who claims to be his friend, says "can we please not talk about politics!?" Yeah, that's just a bigot who doesn't want to feel guilty.

In your eyes. And how often was it brought up? What is your former friend going to do to change the politics of your state? How often do you like talking about rural people? Does that mean you hate them?

You seem to labor under the impression that POC or LGBTQ people or even allies have the responsibility to make bigots stop being deplorable, like they don't have agency of their own. This guy was surrounded by LGBTQ people for two years and they treated him with nothing but decency and it did nothing to change his heart.

I didn't say that. I said that you were already friends with someone and changed them by constantly bringing up stuff that made them uncomfortable and nowhere have you said he had those opinions previously. He was clearly ok with everyone and only got uncomfortable when certain things were brought up. You are trying to equate silence with anti something. Since you didn't mention the refugee ship that sank and your callous response to a few billionaires (including minorities) potentially dying I guess that means your anti minorities and poor people? No you just made a joke and felt no need to talk about the ship sinking.

Why do you think it's more important to value the comfort of someone who has an issue with people expressing concern over their own welfare (and then proceeds to spout right wing talking points when confronted over it) rather than the people whose welfare is being endangered, exactly?

Did you read what he said? It took along time before the dude mentioned any of his own politics. And again I gave 2 examples of people turning from immoral positions and just pointed out that MEkh did the opposite of what he was trying to claim.

And here's why mentioning Daryl Davis is not in fact a refutation of the point:



"You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.

A dude that was uncomfortable about certain things was already down the right wing rabbit hole? Compared to a KKK member? Are you serious? lol. Yeah not everyone can be converted, but a dude that is already freinds with LGBTQ people is gonna be alot easier to convert than a guy that thinks Y or Y should be killed off.

I don't like my freinds/family talking about sex around me it makes me uncomfortable. Doesn't mean I hate it or dont support it.

[Mekh]

And here's why mentioning Daryl Davis is not in fact a refutation of the point:



"You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.

Honestly, 200 over 30 years isn't all the impressive to begin with. That's 6 per year. It would take a million Daryl Davises 12 years to deprogram the Cult of Trump.

- - - Updated - - -

In your eyes. And how often was it brought up?

About the frequency of "one rant about a lousy day at work" from him to "I don't feel safe in my neighbourhood" from them. So what you're saying is, we were supposed to listen to his troubles, as friends do, but shut up about ours? You have a weird idea of friendship, mein Duden.

[Voidism]

Ah, Misha, he's a good source for an honest look at russia. He's funny too.

Yeah, it's kinda bleak to read him at times but I can't help but chuckle often. A "shaking my head in disbelief" chuckle.

I recommend everyone here to look Misha up on Quora if you want an inside look at russia, with a Russian inside. He takes pictures even. Places where you go "wth, how did he get in there without people caring?!"

[Elegiac]

Did you read what he said? It took along time before the dude mentioned any of his own politics.

Yes, I did. And it is very clear that that the dude in question was trying to avoid "political" discussion because they held questionable opinions they didn't want the friend group to scrutinize. Which was demonstrated in the way he doubled down and he proceeded to spout right wing talking points when confronted.

And again I gave 2 examples of people turning from immoral positions

And those examples are nongeneralizable, because deradicalization is a messy and often incomplete process that has no guarantee of working regardless of how nice someone is to the radicalized person.

Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.

[Mekh]

"You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.

And thanks by the way, for proving it's his reading comprehension (or own bigotry) and not a lack of clarity; because having these "debates" alone can be exhausting.

[Kathranis]

But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.

If anything that's a refutation that individual action is a solution to societal problems.