1. #32061
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    And I'm just gonna quote that in bold, because it's phrased perfectly. Thank you for that.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  2. #32062
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    Honestly, 200 over 30 years isn't all the impressive to begin with. That's 6 per year. It would take a million Daryl Davises 12 years to deprogram the Cult of Trump.

    - - - Updated - - -



    About the frequency of "one rant about a lousy day at work" from him to "I don't feel safe in my neighbourhood" from them. So what you're saying is, we were supposed to listen to his troubles, as friends do, but shut up about ours? You have a weird idea of friendship, mein Duden.
    One person converted 200 people over 30 years. Meanwhile you converted one person against you in a couple years. I wonder which way works better?

    You do realize you can talk about different things with different friends right? I have friends I can talk games with, others personal things, and others work, etc... You have a weird idea of friendship if you feel the need to alienate one once you know something makes them uncomfortable.

  3. #32063
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You do realize you can talk about different things with different friends right? I have friends I can talk games with, others personal things, and others work, etc... You have a weird idea of friendship if you feel the need to alienate one once you know something makes them uncomfortable.
    I'm just going to refer you back to @Elegiac here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  4. #32064
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    One person converted 200 people over 30 years. Meanwhile you converted one person against you in a couple years. I wonder which way works better?
    Last I recall, racism is still a problem regardless of Daryl Davis' actions.

    There's also no evidence that the person being ostracized was "on the fence" about these issues. He was clearly already down the rabbit hole but didn't want to be honest about it lest he be kicked out of a friend group.

    You do realize you can talk about different things with different friends right? I have friends I can talk games with, others personal things, and others work, etc...
    Do any of those friends support political movements that pose a direct risk to your wellbeing and safety? No? Then sit down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #32065
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, I did. And it is very clear that that the dude in question was trying to avoid "political" discussion because they held questionable opinions they didn't want the friend group to scrutinize. Which was demonstrated in the way he doubled down and he proceeded to spout right wing talking points when confronted.



    And those examples are nongeneralizable, because deradicalization is a messy and often incomplete process that has no guarantee of working regardless of how nice someone is to the radicalized person.

    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    Where was there proof that he held different beliefs? Why the fuck would he hang out with people he hated? If I was racist/sexist/other I sure as shit wouldn't befriend people I didn't like.

    Nothing has a garanteed sucess rate. Would you rather kill off all the maga people? Or try and convert enough that the ones who stay Maga don't have enough votes?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    And thanks by the way, for proving it's his reading comprehension (or own bigotry) and not a lack of clarity; because having these "debates" alone can be exhausting.
    And thanks for proving me correct by the hostility of your actions. Even trying to label me as a bigot when all I did is point out people who did the opposite of you and got results while you continue to deny you turning a friend hostile.

    Look how combative you both are. You seriously think you weren't being hostile in real life also?

  6. #32066
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Look how combative you both are. You seriously think you weren't being hostile in real life also?
    About as combative as Ukraine is to Russian aggression, to bring things back on topic. Appeasement does not work.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  7. #32067
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Where was there proof that he held different beliefs?
    The fact he immediately retreated to right wing talking points when confronted.

    Why the fuck would he hang out with people he hated? If I was racist/sexist/other I sure as shit wouldn't befriend people I didn't like.
    This is basically the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend" argument in reverse. People are more than capable of believing multiple contradictory things, like that you can be friends with people whose identity you "disagree with" while simultaneously supporting political positions that directly endanger them.

    Nothing has a garanteed sucess rate. Would you rather kill off all the maga people? Or try and convert enough that the ones who stay Maga don't have enough votes?
    Neither?

    "Convincing the bigots" has never been how any social reform movement has succeeded. Ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    About as combative as Ukraine is to Russian aggression, to bring things back on topic. Appeasement does not work.
    Yeah like compare this recent line of argument to how certain people have been banging on since Day 1 of the 3 Day Special Operation that if we do anything mean to Russia then that will just make them do more war crimes.

    Civility and indifference are both vectors for the perpetuation of violence, when it comes down to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #32068
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    This is basically the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend" argument in reverse. People are more than capable of believing multiple contradictory things, like that you can be friends with people whose identity you "disagree with" while simultaneously supporting political positions that directly endanger them.
    He claimed to be "fiscally conservative", but mostly fell for any rightoid PsyOp and desinformation campaign. When he got factchecked, he retreated to "agree to disagree."
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  9. #32069
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    About as combative as Ukraine is to Russian aggression, to bring things back on topic. Appeasement does not work.
    You mean like how they were converting Russian soldiers to their cause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    He claimed to be "fiscally conservative", but mostly fell for any rightoid PsyOp and desinformation campaign. When he got factchecked, he retreated to "agree to disagree."
    You didn't state that originally. Yes he might have started right then but your actions didn't do aything but help spiral him even more down the rabbit hole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The fact he immediately retreated to right wing talking points when confronted.



    This is basically the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend" argument in reverse. People are more than capable of believing multiple contradictory things, like that you can be friends with people whose identity you "disagree with" while simultaneously supporting political positions that directly endanger them.



    Neither?

    "Convincing the bigots" has never been how any social reform movement has succeeded. Ever.

    And I'm sure those "I cant be racist" people constantly hang out with their "black friend" and its not just saying hello to a worker.


    Except Daryl converted bigots and so did the Ukrainians. Literally got Russians killing their own people because they were shown they were wrong. But doesn't work

    Ok This is my last post Mekh is right we are way off topic. Sorry I pointed out that Ukraine is trying to be nice to the Russian PoWs.

  10. #32070
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    After being constantly hounded.
    There's no indication he was being hounded.

    And I'm sure those "I cant be racist" people constantly hang out with their "black friend" and its not just saying hello to a worker.
    Again, this is just you being ignorant as to how this sort of thing works.

    Except Daryl converted bigots and so did the Ukrainians. Literally got Russians killing their own people because they were shown they were wrong. But doesn't work
    And again; Russia is still invading Ukraine regardless of the latter converting a few vatniks by being nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  11. #32071
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yes he might have started right then but your actions didn't do aything but help spiral him even more down the rabbit hole.
    "Telling people they are falling down a desinformation rabbit hole pushes them into the rabbit hole!" sure is a take. Yes, we should encourage lies and delusion!
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  12. #32072
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post

    And again; Russia is still invading Ukraine regardless of the latter converting a few vatniks by being nice.
    You seriously think having several hundred/thousand Russians not attacking you but their own people isn't helping? Not to mention the info they can give you.

  13. #32073
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You seriously think having several hundred/thousand Russians not attacking you but their own people isn't helping? Not to mention the info they can give you.
    You think turning a hundred Russians into shashlik in a tungsten blender with a single rocket doesn't help more?
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  14. #32074
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You seriously think having several hundred/thousand Russians not attacking you but their own people isn't helping? Not to mention the info they can give you.
    Relying on it as a primary strategy or the only strategy is not how Ukraine has held out this long. And in fact, if Russia did not treat its own troops so abysmally they would not be defecting regardless of how "nice" Ukraine was.

    You're taking an incidental benefit and trying to generalize it into a moral axiom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #32075
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Relying on it as a primary strategy or the only strategy is not how Ukraine has held out this long. And in fact, if Russia did not treat its own troops so abysmally they would not be defecting regardless of how "nice" Ukraine was.

    You're taking an incidental benefit and trying to generalize it into a moral axiom.
    Even though it's a popular phrase, you can't really "kill with kindness."
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  16. #32076
    Quote Originally Posted by alach View Post
    Well said.

    I'd also like to point out to those folks that the reason their groceries are high is becaue of Putin, not Ukraine. Its not a secret markets and business hate uncertainity and what Russia has done has flipped the global order and trade upside down, just as we were coming out of a pandemic. Of course invading another neighbouring country is always wrong, but he really took one of the worst times to do it.
    I'd also politely remind them that inflation is global, and the blame for the cause of it can't be put on just one person or reason. How each country is dealing with it is another matter.
    Inflation started far before the invasion. COVID did some damage, then the subsequent supply chain issues especially in 2021 really got things going, and now companies are figuring they can get away with hiking prices and blame it all on inflation too, while reaping record profits.

    I'm talking North America mostly here. Europe is a different beast, and here the invasion itself didn't have a noticeable effect.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  17. #32077
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Relying on it as a primary strategy or the only strategy is not how Ukraine has held out this long. And in fact, if Russia did not treat its own troops so abysmally they would not be defecting regardless of how "nice" Ukraine was.

    You're taking an incidental benefit and trying to generalize it into a moral axiom.
    Who said to rely on it as a primary/only strategy?

    You're trying to deny results to justify hate/inaction. Thank god your not a Russian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    You think turning a hundred Russians into shashlik in a tungsten blender with a single rocket doesn't help more?
    Are you saying you wanna kill all the maga people? That's not something you can really do to a bigot or someone ignorant.

  18. #32078
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Are you saying you wanna kill all the maga people? That's not something you can really do to a bigot or someone ignorant.
    What the absolute fuck where did this come from rofl.

    Those soldiers are active combatants in a war their country started, currently in enemy territory. They're valid targets.

  19. #32079
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You seriously think having several hundred/thousand Russians not attacking you but their own people isn't helping? Not to mention the info they can give you.
    It's so cute when people who have no idea about how Russian military behaves chime in with "just be nice to them", when being nice to them can actually get you killed.

  20. #32080
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    It's so cute when people who have no idea about how Russian military behaves chime in with "just be nice to them", when being nice to them can actually get you killed.
    Did I say that? Are you denying that there are Russians fighting for Ukraine? I never said don't kill. I pointed out how Ukrainians aren't stooping to the Russian level and showing them they aren't the Evil magical Nazi super soldiers Russia is telling them which is causing some to aid Ukraine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What the absolute fuck where did this come from rofl.

    Those soldiers are active combatants in a war their country started, currently in enemy territory. They're valid targets.
    It's related to the earlier convo between the two of us. We were way off topic. Yes I agree they are valid targets. I was saying Ukraine doesn't just try and kill them all but tries to get some to surrender and/or convert.

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