1. #32061
    I found this interesting:


  2. #32062
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.
    You seem to labor under the impression that POC or LGBTQ people or even allies have the responsibility to make bigots stop being deplorable, like they don't have agency of their own. This guy was surrounded by LGBTQ people for two years and they treated him with nothing but decency and it did nothing to change his heart.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  3. #32063
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.
    And here's why mentioning Daryl Davis is not in fact a refutation of the point:

    "We have to accept that realistically, persuading all the bigots is just not an option. Yes, we should convince as many people as possible, but there will always be bigots - and mocking them, shaming them, or boycotting them is a perfectly valid strategy.

    Does that mean that when we cancel bigots we're acting kind of like them? No. You would only think that if you're a total moral relativist. And, controversial opinion, bigotry is shameful and it should be shamed. If you're testing out some racist ideas in your head, you might feel afraid to express them publicly for fear of being shamed or judged. Is that because we live in an Orwellian dystopia that punishes people for wrongthink? No. It's because racism is dangerous and shameful, and you should be ashamed of it, and the people judging you are right to do so.

    And sure, there are some very patient people who devote their lives to deradicalizing bigots which is a perfectly noble thing to do. There's a guy named Daryl Davis who's befriended members of the Ku Klux Klan for over 30 years, and he claims he's convinced more than 200 of them to leave. And good for him. Deradicalization is a perfectly valid strategy. But it cannot be the only strategy, and it must not be the primary strategy. Because we're not going to defeat racism by telling Black people to be a little nicer to racists. Feminists would be wasting their time trying to convince Andrew Tate to respect women. In general, the massive effort that it takes to 'maybe' persuade bigots is better spent persuading other people not to listen to them."
    "You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2023-06-21 at 06:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #32064
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I found this interesting:

    Ah, Misha, he's a good source for an honest look at russia. He's funny too.

  5. #32065
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    When one guy writes about how he might have to move states, because he isn't sure his marriage remains legal after the next election and the other guy, who claims to be his friend, says "can we please not talk about politics!?" Yeah, that's just a bigot who doesn't want to feel guilty.
    In your eyes. And how often was it brought up? What is your former friend going to do to change the politics of your state? How often do you like talking about rural people? Does that mean you hate them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    You seem to labor under the impression that POC or LGBTQ people or even allies have the responsibility to make bigots stop being deplorable, like they don't have agency of their own. This guy was surrounded by LGBTQ people for two years and they treated him with nothing but decency and it did nothing to change his heart.
    I didn't say that. I said that you were already friends with someone and changed them by constantly bringing up stuff that made them uncomfortable and nowhere have you said he had those opinions previously. He was clearly ok with everyone and only got uncomfortable when certain things were brought up. You are trying to equate silence with anti something. Since you didn't mention the refugee ship that sank and your callous response to a few billionaires (including minorities) potentially dying I guess that means your anti minorities and poor people? No you just made a joke and felt no need to talk about the ship sinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Why do you think it's more important to value the comfort of someone who has an issue with people expressing concern over their own welfare (and then proceeds to spout right wing talking points when confronted over it) rather than the people whose welfare is being endangered, exactly?
    Did you read what he said? It took along time before the dude mentioned any of his own politics. And again I gave 2 examples of people turning from immoral positions and just pointed out that MEkh did the opposite of what he was trying to claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And here's why mentioning Daryl Davis is not in fact a refutation of the point:



    "You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.
    A dude that was uncomfortable about certain things was already down the right wing rabbit hole? Compared to a KKK member? Are you serious? lol. Yeah not everyone can be converted, but a dude that is already freinds with LGBTQ people is gonna be alot easier to convert than a guy that thinks Y or Y should be killed off.

    I don't like my freinds/family talking about sex around me it makes me uncomfortable. Doesn't mean I hate it or dont support it.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2023-06-21 at 06:45 PM.

  6. #32066
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And here's why mentioning Daryl Davis is not in fact a refutation of the point:



    "You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.
    Honestly, 200 over 30 years isn't all the impressive to begin with. That's 6 per year. It would take a million Daryl Davises 12 years to deprogram the Cult of Trump.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    In your eyes. And how often was it brought up?
    About the frequency of "one rant about a lousy day at work" from him to "I don't feel safe in my neighbourhood" from them. So what you're saying is, we were supposed to listen to his troubles, as friends do, but shut up about ours? You have a weird idea of friendship, mein Duden.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  7. #32067
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Ah, Misha, he's a good source for an honest look at russia. He's funny too.
    Yeah, it's kinda bleak to read him at times but I can't help but chuckle often. A "shaking my head in disbelief" chuckle.

    I recommend everyone here to look Misha up on Quora if you want an inside look at russia, with a Russian inside. He takes pictures even. Places where you go "wth, how did he get in there without people caring?!"

  8. #32068
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Did you read what he said? It took along time before the dude mentioned any of his own politics.
    Yes, I did. And it is very clear that that the dude in question was trying to avoid "political" discussion because they held questionable opinions they didn't want the friend group to scrutinize. Which was demonstrated in the way he doubled down and he proceeded to spout right wing talking points when confronted.

    And again I gave 2 examples of people turning from immoral positions
    And those examples are nongeneralizable, because deradicalization is a messy and often incomplete process that has no guarantee of working regardless of how nice someone is to the radicalized person.

    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #32069
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    "You gave a person that was clearly already down the right-wing rabbit hole a chance to do the right thing but instead they doubled down so you're wrong for excluding them from your social space" is, again, a weak ass argument.
    And thanks by the way, for proving it's his reading comprehension (or own bigotry) and not a lack of clarity; because having these "debates" alone can be exhausting.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  10. #32070
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    But yeah keep showing your true colors by attacking someone for quoting you directly and then continue to ignore the fact that a black man converted over 200 kkk members by being kind and not an asshole like you.
    If anything that's a refutation that individual action is a solution to societal problems.

  11. #32071
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    And I'm just gonna quote that in bold, because it's phrased perfectly. Thank you for that.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  12. #32072
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    Honestly, 200 over 30 years isn't all the impressive to begin with. That's 6 per year. It would take a million Daryl Davises 12 years to deprogram the Cult of Trump.

    - - - Updated - - -



    About the frequency of "one rant about a lousy day at work" from him to "I don't feel safe in my neighbourhood" from them. So what you're saying is, we were supposed to listen to his troubles, as friends do, but shut up about ours? You have a weird idea of friendship, mein Duden.
    One person converted 200 people over 30 years. Meanwhile you converted one person against you in a couple years. I wonder which way works better?

    You do realize you can talk about different things with different friends right? I have friends I can talk games with, others personal things, and others work, etc... You have a weird idea of friendship if you feel the need to alienate one once you know something makes them uncomfortable.

  13. #32073
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You do realize you can talk about different things with different friends right? I have friends I can talk games with, others personal things, and others work, etc... You have a weird idea of friendship if you feel the need to alienate one once you know something makes them uncomfortable.
    I'm just going to refer you back to @Elegiac here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  14. #32074
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    One person converted 200 people over 30 years. Meanwhile you converted one person against you in a couple years. I wonder which way works better?
    Last I recall, racism is still a problem regardless of Daryl Davis' actions.

    There's also no evidence that the person being ostracized was "on the fence" about these issues. He was clearly already down the rabbit hole but didn't want to be honest about it lest he be kicked out of a friend group.

    You do realize you can talk about different things with different friends right? I have friends I can talk games with, others personal things, and others work, etc...
    Do any of those friends support political movements that pose a direct risk to your wellbeing and safety? No? Then sit down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #32075
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, I did. And it is very clear that that the dude in question was trying to avoid "political" discussion because they held questionable opinions they didn't want the friend group to scrutinize. Which was demonstrated in the way he doubled down and he proceeded to spout right wing talking points when confronted.



    And those examples are nongeneralizable, because deradicalization is a messy and often incomplete process that has no guarantee of working regardless of how nice someone is to the radicalized person.

    Regardless of how civil you are to someone, you are not their friend if you support political movements that pose a direct threat to their welfare and existence. You are also not their friend if you prioritize your commitment to being 'apolitical' over their freedom to express concern over their own wellbeing.
    Where was there proof that he held different beliefs? Why the fuck would he hang out with people he hated? If I was racist/sexist/other I sure as shit wouldn't befriend people I didn't like.

    Nothing has a garanteed sucess rate. Would you rather kill off all the maga people? Or try and convert enough that the ones who stay Maga don't have enough votes?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    And thanks by the way, for proving it's his reading comprehension (or own bigotry) and not a lack of clarity; because having these "debates" alone can be exhausting.
    And thanks for proving me correct by the hostility of your actions. Even trying to label me as a bigot when all I did is point out people who did the opposite of you and got results while you continue to deny you turning a friend hostile.

    Look how combative you both are. You seriously think you weren't being hostile in real life also?

  16. #32076
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Look how combative you both are. You seriously think you weren't being hostile in real life also?
    About as combative as Ukraine is to Russian aggression, to bring things back on topic. Appeasement does not work.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  17. #32077
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Where was there proof that he held different beliefs?
    The fact he immediately retreated to right wing talking points when confronted.

    Why the fuck would he hang out with people he hated? If I was racist/sexist/other I sure as shit wouldn't befriend people I didn't like.
    This is basically the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend" argument in reverse. People are more than capable of believing multiple contradictory things, like that you can be friends with people whose identity you "disagree with" while simultaneously supporting political positions that directly endanger them.

    Nothing has a garanteed sucess rate. Would you rather kill off all the maga people? Or try and convert enough that the ones who stay Maga don't have enough votes?
    Neither?

    "Convincing the bigots" has never been how any social reform movement has succeeded. Ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    About as combative as Ukraine is to Russian aggression, to bring things back on topic. Appeasement does not work.
    Yeah like compare this recent line of argument to how certain people have been banging on since Day 1 of the 3 Day Special Operation that if we do anything mean to Russia then that will just make them do more war crimes.

    Civility and indifference are both vectors for the perpetuation of violence, when it comes down to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #32078
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    This is basically the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend" argument in reverse. People are more than capable of believing multiple contradictory things, like that you can be friends with people whose identity you "disagree with" while simultaneously supporting political positions that directly endanger them.
    He claimed to be "fiscally conservative", but mostly fell for any rightoid PsyOp and desinformation campaign. When he got factchecked, he retreated to "agree to disagree."
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  19. #32079
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    About as combative as Ukraine is to Russian aggression, to bring things back on topic. Appeasement does not work.
    You mean like how they were converting Russian soldiers to their cause?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    He claimed to be "fiscally conservative", but mostly fell for any rightoid PsyOp and desinformation campaign. When he got factchecked, he retreated to "agree to disagree."
    You didn't state that originally. Yes he might have started right then but your actions didn't do aything but help spiral him even more down the rabbit hole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The fact he immediately retreated to right wing talking points when confronted.



    This is basically the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend" argument in reverse. People are more than capable of believing multiple contradictory things, like that you can be friends with people whose identity you "disagree with" while simultaneously supporting political positions that directly endanger them.



    Neither?

    "Convincing the bigots" has never been how any social reform movement has succeeded. Ever.

    And I'm sure those "I cant be racist" people constantly hang out with their "black friend" and its not just saying hello to a worker.


    Except Daryl converted bigots and so did the Ukrainians. Literally got Russians killing their own people because they were shown they were wrong. But doesn't work

    Ok This is my last post Mekh is right we are way off topic. Sorry I pointed out that Ukraine is trying to be nice to the Russian PoWs.

  20. #32080
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    After being constantly hounded.
    There's no indication he was being hounded.

    And I'm sure those "I cant be racist" people constantly hang out with their "black friend" and its not just saying hello to a worker.
    Again, this is just you being ignorant as to how this sort of thing works.

    Except Daryl converted bigots and so did the Ukrainians. Literally got Russians killing their own people because they were shown they were wrong. But doesn't work
    And again; Russia is still invading Ukraine regardless of the latter converting a few vatniks by being nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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