Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

Sorry, not seeing it quite that way.

People will die clearing the mines, that's one fact I doubt neither will argue. Now you have two groups of people to do the task. Those who are innocent, and those who are guilty. Are you telling me here with straight face, that picking the innocents to die is fine, but making the guilty deal with the problem they created is crime? The law is horseshit if that's the case, and I'll keep my answer in which group should have at it.

Your premise is flawed. Do I want the innocent to die? No of course not, don't be daft. But making the guilty clean up the mess runs afoul of all sorts of international conventions (most notably the Geneva one). It's shitty but at the same time it also prevents Ukrainian POWs from being sent into an Ukrainian minefield for clearing (prevents used here to mean: should not happen but russia is a smelly country so they would totally do it anyway but it is not allowed.)

[Flarelaine]

Sorry, not seeing it quite that way.

People will die clearing the mines, that's one fact I doubt neither will argue. Now you have two groups of people to do the task. Those who are innocent, and those who are guilty. Are you telling me here with straight face, that picking the innocents to die is fine, but making the guilty deal with the problem they created is crime? The law is horseshit if that's the case, and I'll keep my answer in which group should have at it.

Even if they are guilty - and it is debatable in the case of conscripts - courts around the West would still likely qualify this as cruel and unusual punishment.

[Canpinter]

Even if they are guilty - and it is debatable in the case of conscripts - courts around the West would still likely qualify this as cruel and unusual punishment.

Especially because azadian is clearly just suggesting it as a thinly viled means of mass execution.

Hell even from a simple tactical perspective it's a horrible idea. You want the enemy soldiers to surrender to you and if they think they will have to clear minefields and die they are less likely to do so.

[Shadowferal]

Yea...enemy soldiers, in this particular case, conscripts, need to know that they'll be treated better, far more so, than going back home.

[Gabriel]

Your premise is flawed. Do I want the innocent to die? No of course not, don't be daft. But making the guilty clean up the mess runs afoul of all sorts of international conventions (most notably the Geneva one). It's shitty but at the same time it also prevents Ukrainian POWs from being sent into an Ukrainian minefield for clearing (prevents used here to mean: should not happen but russia is a smelly country so they would totally do it anyway but it is not allowed.)

This is the best reason not to do it, even if the invaders would deserve it.

[Azadina]

Especially because azadian is clearly just suggesting it as a thinly viled means of mass execution.

Hell even from a simple tactical perspective it's a horrible idea. You want the enemy soldiers to surrender to you and if they think they will have to clear minefields and die they are less likely to do so.

Only if the mine clearers are incompetent, or the ruZZkies choose to shoot and artillery their own people doing the mine clearing. Neither of which you could fault me for. It would once again be purely their own fault.

[Shadowferal]

Only if the mine clearers are incompetent, or the ruZZkies choose to shoot and artillery their own people doing the mine clearing. Neither of which you could fault me for. It would once again be purely their own fault.

As sympathetic as I may be here, one needs to consider all the ramifications. If one can't consider forced conscription, and those that'd willingly surrender, then the political consequences need to be seen to.

[Azadina]

Hmmm you would punish a collective for the deeds of others though. Mind you, in their mind they may very well not be the guilty party. Nor in the history of war tribunals, has a common soldier been convicted for warcrimes because he was part of an invading army.

It's a gut reaction, sure. I personally wouldn't care less if Russian soldiers accidentally blow themselves up with their own mines. But there's a moral highground to keep here.

What others? We were talking captured ruZZki invaders, weren't we? They ARE the ones who have been doing the "deeds of others" in Ukraine. Also whether they think they're invading, murdering pillagers, doesn't concern me one bit. They are, as long as they crossed the border into Ukraine to do so. They could have picked the "let's not go there" option, but did not.

Your premise is flawed. Do I want the innocent to die? No of course not, don't be daft. But making the guilty clean up the mess runs afoul of all sorts of international conventions (most notably the Geneva one). It's shitty but at the same time it also prevents Ukrainian POWs from being sent into an Ukrainian minefield for clearing (prevents used here to mean: should not happen but russia is a smelly country so they would totally do it anyway but it is not allowed.)

It wasn't a question of what you ideally want to happen or not. It was simply picking either innocent group of people for dangerous and fatal task, or the group who are at fault for it in the first place. One or the other, there's no option three in sight. You're picking the innocents because something something law, geneva, morality, something war is shitty etc. How nice for them right? Heartwarming I'm sure.

[Gorsameth]

Sigh.
It is the strategically smart choice to treat captives well. Enemy soldiers who know they will be treated cruelly and/or killed if captured have little reason not to fight to the death. Soldiers who know they will be treated humanly are more likely to surrender when given the option.

Using captives as human mine clears does a LOT LOT LOT more bad long term then they could ever do 'good' short term

The only reason to want to treat captives badly is because you want sadistic vengeance. Nothing more.

[Sunseeker]

Sigh.
It is the strategically smart choice to treat captives well. Enemy soldiers who know they will be treated cruelly and/or killed if captured have little reason not to fight to the death. Soldiers who know they will be treated humanly are more likely to surrender when given the option.

Using captives as human mine clears does a LOT LOT LOT more bad long term then they could ever do 'good' short term

The only reason to want to treat captives badly is because you want sadistic vengeance. Nothing more.

Not to mention, there's no incentive to do a job like mine clearing well. Miss a mine? Oh well, I guess it sucks to be those guys behind me.

[Azadina]

Not to mention, there's no incentive to do a job like mine clearing well. Miss a mine? Oh well, I guess it sucks to be those guys behind me.

If you're doing mine clearing, I'd imagine you'd find some incentive to do a proper job. One simple incentive if nothing else.

[Sunseeker]

If you're doing mine clearing, I'd imagine you'd find some incentive to do a proper job. One simple incentive if nothing else.

If the choice is death by mine or death by your captors by mine, then you don't have an incentives to help your captors, ie: do a good job.

And as Gorsameth already pointed out, knowing your captors plan to kill you incentivizes you to fight harder and to the death.

So aside from satisfying your bloodlust, using POWs as living minesweepers helps noone.

[Azadina]

If the choice is death by mine or death by your captors by mine, then you don't have an incentives to help your captors, ie: do a good job.

And as Gorsameth already pointed out, knowing your captors plan to kill you incentivizes you to fight harder and to the death.

So aside from satisfying your bloodlust, using POWs as living minesweepers helps noone.

As opposed to Ukrainians dying as minesweepers helps....Russia? Nice. How bloodlustly terrible of me for not wanting them to die for Russias doing.

[Shadowferal]

If you want to find out how much harder a man will fight then don't give him a way out. Death by mine isn't preferable to a fight to the death.

[Azadina]

If you want to find out how much harder a man will fight then don't give him a way out. Death by mine isn't preferable to a fight to the death.

It would only reinforce them being the bad guy willingly. Otherwise they'd consider something other than killing maximum amount of innocent people before kicking the bucket, if they know they're about to either way. Also, mine clearing isn't deadly to every single person doing it, it's kind of up to them. Fighting to the death is kind of deadly to all who attempt, as the description suggests.

[Canpinter]

I'm curious how you plan to force unwilling pows to clear minefields, like spell it out what do you plan to do to them if they say no.

[Veggie50]

What others? We were talking captured ruZZki invaders, weren't we? They ARE the ones who have been doing the "deeds of others" in Ukraine. Also whether they think they're invading, murdering pillagers, doesn't concern me one bit. They are, as long as they crossed the border into Ukraine to do so. They could have picked the "let's not go there" option, but did not.



It wasn't a question of what you ideally want to happen or not. It was simply picking either innocent group of people for dangerous and fatal task, or the group who are at fault for it in the first place. One or the other, there's no option three in sight. You're picking the innocents because something something law, geneva, morality, something war is shitty etc. How nice for them right? Heartwarming I'm sure.

Shortsighted =\

Lots of russians going into ukraine with a gun to their head, and lots of those that surrender first chance they get. Let’s send them into a minefield solely for being Russian.

At which point, Putins rhetoric about this being a fight for the survival of Russia becomes actual truth.

[Azadina]

I'm curious how you plan to force unwilling pows to clear minefields, like spell it out what do you plan to do to them if they say no.

Didn't realize prisoners of war can pick and choose their own job opportunities so freely.

Shortsighted =\

Lots of russians going into ukraine with a gun to their head, and lots of those that surrender first chance they get. Let’s send them into a minefield solely for being Russian.

At which point, Putins rhetoric about this being a fight for the survival of Russia becomes actual truth.

You mean gun in their hands? Or are you saying they go unarmed into a war? Also, no. Survival of Russia has fuck all to do with anything that happens inside Ukraines borders. Don't even try.

[Canpinter]

Didn't realize prisoners of war can pick and choose their own job opportunities so freely.

Don't dodge the question, how to you plan to make unwilling pows dig mines out of the ground if they say no ? And don't be vague spell it out.

[Kralljin]

Didn't realize prisoners of war can pick and choose their own job opportunities so freely.

Okay, what else they're going to do if a POW says no?

1. Lock them up (which arguably preferable to mine field clearing duty)
2. threaten them by force (a.k.a. shooting them)

honestly, between mine field clearing duty and being shot, i'm not sure if would argue with a guy that chooses the bullet over that, because a bullet to the heart / skull is at least a quick death.
Bleeding out on a mine field, yeah, not so much.