Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Triceron]

I feel like this focuses way too much on the utility of one's individual beliefs. Beliefs can be transcribed in words and other people can use those words to do pretty much whatever the fuck they want to with them. When somebody's stated beliefs turn into acts of genocide and imperialist wars it seems rather pointless to look past that and say, "well, that guy's beliefs weren't right or wrong, it was the actions of the people who acted on those beliefs that were wrong!" I mean, I guess I finally understand your perspective here but it reeks of enlightened centrism.

I'm not saying there can't be wrong beliefs either.

But let's be clear, Putin hasn't outright stated Genocide, so I think the immediate comparisons to him having Genocidal beliefs would be a step in the wrong direction. His actions aren't being based on Genocidal beliefs, it merely extreme action motivated by a more common belief that has more neutral intentions. And of course, I am aware it could be a front, could be an excuse, but that is still quite a different situation than someone who literally speaks out on having genocidal beliefs, which we also have in history.

Whether he personally has genocidal beliefs or not is quite subjective right now (with most of the forum obviously leaning towards him being absolute evil). Me personally, I understand the situation in the region, and I don't see this as a clearcut 'Genocide', more than it is a rather complex dispute about territory and conflict of political values, much like most conflicts tend to be.

[Relapses]

I'm not saying there can't be wrong beliefs either.

But let's be clear, Putin hasn't outright stated Genocide, so I think the immediate comparisons to him having Genocidal beliefs would be a step in the wrong direction. His actions aren't being based on Genocidal beliefs, it merely extreme action motivated by a more common belief that has more neutral intentions. And of course, I am aware it could be a front, could be an excuse, but that is still quite a different situation than someone who literally speaks out on having genocidal beliefs, which we also have in history.

Whether he personally has genocidal beliefs or not is quite subjective right now (with most of the forum obviously leaning towards him being absolute evil). Me personally, I understand the situation in the region, and I don't see this as a clearcut 'Genocide', more than it is a rather complex dispute about territory and conflict of political values, much like most conflicts tend to be.

I'm sorry man but Bucha would respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

[Triceron]

Also, did you just try and claim that “even though putin’s actions might be wrong, the idea behind them is right” on me?

Is everyone just blind or ignorant here?

If I say the belief is neither right or wrong, how the fuck are you all interpreting this as 'Putin's beliefs are right'?

You understand the meaning of 'Beliefs are neither right nor wrong', don't you? They're beliefs.

Just like anyone holding a religious belief in a certain God should not be defined as having a right or wrong belief. It is a belief that they hold, and whether it is right or wrong is judged subjectively, by the eye of the beholder.

You can think anyone who thinks God exists is wrong, it isn't anything beyond an opinion. There is no universal 'Right or Wrong' about the belief itself.

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I'm sorry man but Bucha would respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

And I think that's fair.

[Relapses]

And I think that's fair.

If it's fair then you must also understand that there are Russian nationalists who want a second Bucha and many who see Ukranians as second-class citizens, right? If Russia gets its way, what do you think those Russians are going to do?

[Gorsameth]

Where was Prigozhin before the crash?

Hmf...I'd wager he wasn't flying at all.

The problem is I don't see the point.
Russia is saying he is dead, and they are most likely to know it.

What does them lying do? Nothing the West or Ukraine does will change depending on him being alive or dead. Pretending to kill him 2 months after the coup doesn't stop Putin from looking weak. And him being spotted from now on would make Putin look even weaker.

What ever is the upside here?

[Relapses]

The problem is I don't see the point.
Russia is saying he is dead, and they are most likely to know it.

What does them lying do? Nothing the West or Ukraine does will change depending on him being alive or dead. Pretending to kill him 2 months after the coup doesn't stop Putin from looking weak. And him being spotted from now on would make Putin look even weaker.

What ever is the upside here?

Try another coup and we'll shoot you down instantly...! (two months later.)

[Triceron]

If it's fair then you must also understand that there are Russian nationalists who want a second Bucha and many who see Ukranians as second-class citizens, right? If Russia gets its way, what do you think those Russians are going to do?

Well considering they stepped beyond the mere belief and have taken action, then it can be internationally condemned, which it is.

I mean, has any of this actually implied me saying 'nothing should be done about it'? I've said I've condemned the actions, and the result of which should be taking action.

But if we're talking about beliefs about, then it's still fair for people to have their opinions on the matter.

[Corvus]

The US is saying they don't think the Prig was brought down by a missile. The flight was also delayed due to emergency maintenance before take off, so might have been a bomb.

[Relapses]

Well considering they stepped beyond the mere belief and have taken action, then it can be internationally condemned, which it is.

I mean, has any of this actually implied me saying 'nothing should be done about it'? I've said I've condemned the actions, and the result of which should be taking action.

But if we're talking about beliefs about, then it's still fair for people to have their opinions on the matter.

What...? I asked you a direct question and you not only failed to answer it, you doubled down on rhetoric that we've already moved past. What do you think the Russian nationalists who view Ukranians as second-class citizens are going to do if Russia gets a favorable outcome from this war?

[Triceron]

What...? I asked you a direct question and you not only failed to answer it, you doubled down on rhetoric that we've already moved past. What do you think the Russian nationalists who view Ukranians as second-class citizens are going to do if Russia gets a favorable outcome from this war?

They will do whatever they wish since they have full control of the matter.

Just like they have full control of Crimea and could do anything to their citizens, like manipulate their polls to have a 97% approval ratings for annexation.

What exactly are we contending here? If you're implying that immediate genocide will happen, then I will simply say it could happen, but may not be the only outcome either. All we could do is assume, right?

[Relapses]

They will do whatever they wish since they have full control of the matter.

Just like they have full control of Crimea and could do anything to their citizens, likemanipulate their polls to have a 97% approval ratings for annexation.

What exactly are we contending here?

I wanted to see if I could get you to actually answer a fucking question instead of flip-flopping this ridiculous "maybe they will, maybe they won't" thought experiment you seem dead-set on executing. Apparently I can't so any further discussion with you is pretty pointless. Enjoy sniffing your own farts I guess.

[Triceron]

I wanted to see if I could get you to actually answer a fucking question instead of flip-flopping this ridiculous "maybe they will, maybe they won't" thought experiment you seem dead-set on executing. Apparently I can't so any further discussion with you is pretty pointless. Enjoy sniffing your own farts I guess.

But you're baiting a question that has no answer. You're literally asking a 'What if'.

What if Putin died? Could you answer what would happen to Russia with a simple clear cut answer too? Ramifications are quite high in such a scenario that there isn't any real answer to it other than assuming.

And if you're looking for an assumption for the sake of arguing against, then I'm not really interested in that kind of bad faith discussion, if that is what you're trying to bait out of me. Let's face it, you're looking for a Gotcha moment, that's all. Don't need to pretend you're the victim here just because I'm not falling for your low level bait.

[Biglog]

What happened isn't surprising. 2 years ago on here even before the invasion I said that between Prigozhin and Putin, one of the two would kill each other. The power situation there was definitely not sustainable with Wagner and had been a problem for years. The coup attempt pushed Putin to make the move despite the risks. Putin even admitted today that he'd known Prigozhin a decade longer than many thought. This issue with Wagner getting a bit too powerful had been percolating for a long time (long before the coup), and it was just a matter of which did the other in first.

[Relapses]

But you're baiting a question that has no answer. You're literally asking a 'What if'.

What if Putin died? Could you answer what would happen to Russia with a simple clear cut answer too? Ramifications are quite high in such a scenario that there isn't any real answer to it other than assuming.

And if you're looking for an assumption for the sake of arguing against, then I'm not really interested in that kind of bad faith discussion, if that is what you're trying to bait out of me.

Holy shit dude. It's not "bad faith" to ask your interlocutor to provide their position on a subject. You don't need to "assume" anything, you just need to have a fucking opinion.

[Shadowferal]

The problem is I don't see the point. Russia is saying he is dead, and they are most likely to know it.
What does them lying do? Nothing the West or Ukraine does will change depending on him being alive or dead. Pretending to kill him 2 months after the coup doesn't stop Putin from looking weak. And him being spotted from now on would make Putin look even weaker.
What ever is the upside here?

But it's not lying if they think it's true. Which is what I believe Prigozhin wants Putin and...everyone else to think. I haven't sussed out the "why" just yet. But as far as "protective camouflage" goes, being declared dead isn't bad. And the thousand Wagner mercs that "disappeared" from Belarus would certain be a fairly decent bodyguard.

[Triceron]

Holy shit dude. It's not "bad faith" to ask your interlocutor to provide their position on a subject. You don't need to "assume" anything, you just need to have a fucking opinion.

And I did.

They will do whatever they wish since they have full control of the matter.

Just like they have full control of Crimea and could do anything to their citizens, like manipulate their polls to have a 97% approval ratings for annexation.

What exactly are we contending here? If you're implying that immediate genocide will happen, then I will simply say it could happen, but may not be the only outcome either. All we could do is assume, right?

If that is my opinion, and you are only interested in dismissing it, then what is your goal here? You asked a fucking question and I fucking answered.

[Relapses]

And I did.

Homie, that is not a position and you know it. The absence of having a position isn't a position. Are you so terrified of being criticized for having an opinion that you've constructed an entire belief structure that allows you to opt out of any contentious discussion?

[Triceron]

Homie, that is not a position and you know it. The absence of having a position isn't a position. Are you so terrified of being criticized for having an opinion that you've constructed an entire belief structure that allows you to opt out of any contentious discussion?

How is there an absence of a position?

You asked:

What do you think the Russian nationalists who view Ukranians as second-class citizens are going to do if Russia gets a favorable outcome from this war?


I answered:

Whatever the fuck they want to since they would have full control.



What kind of answer are you actually expecting here? You asked what I think would happen in a What If scenario where the nationals got what they want. I honestly don't know what you're asking of me if this is the question you're giving me. Perhaps you should be more specific about WHAT you're actually asking my opinion of here?

Are you expecting me to say 'They would be considered evil and should be nuked from orbit' or some shit like that? Like, honestly, what are you looking for here?

[Relapses]

How is there an absence of a position?

You asked:

What do you think the Russian nationalists who view Ukranians as second-class citizens are going to do if Russia gets a favorable outcome from this war?


I answered:

Whatever the fuck they want to since they would have full control.



What kind of answer are you actually expecting here? You didn't ask me for a particular opinion, you asked what I think would happen in a What If scenario where the nationals got what they want.

I want you to show that you can exercise even the smallest amount of critical thinking. If the Russian nationals get "whatever the fuck they want," then what is the next step?

[Triceron]

I want you to show that you can exercise even the smallest amount of critical thinking. If the Russian nationals get "whatever the fuck they want," then what is the next step?

Whatever they choose to do.

Could be genocide
Could be forced resocialization and integration
Could be ongoing persecution of the people

Which is already covered in the 'whatever the fuck they want', no? Is that too vague for you?

You can ask me for the next step, since I already answered the question. Not just bitch about not liking the answer you got for your intentionally vague question regarding a what-if scenario.

If you're looking for my position, then ask a question that relates to an actual opinion about the position, not just 'what do you think they would do?' and leave it at that.

Because I've been clear that I condemn the wrongful actions taking place, and you seem to not want to recognize that as being a valid opinion whatsoever. You wouldn't need to be doing this dance if you already acknowledged that I do have a stance against wrongful actions taking place.