Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Saradain]

Finnish authorities have arrested a russian neo-nazi Jan Igorovits Petrovsky. He acted as a commander of the Rusich group, a paramilitary neo-nazi group in 2014-2015...Which is considered a terrorist organization. He also, alongside his little group of nazis, less than surprisingly, is suspected of war crimes that happened during those years in Luhansk and Donetsk region. Rusich group has connections to Wagner and possibly acted as a part of Wagner. Mister Petrovsky also is sactioned by EU and USA.

Ukraine has requested Finland to extradite him.

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/...omessa/8764510

Finnish article as the news piece seems to be brand new. Use a translator.

[Relapses]

Ehhh......

I'm no expert on the subject so I'll defer to your expertise on that front.

I think the fact that every single unmoderated forum on the internet eventually devolves into white nationalists openly spreading hate and blaming everything on the Jews kinda proves that point fairly well. The marketplace for ideas on the internet will always cater to the lowest common denominator which is why some amount of moderation is necessary.

[Gigantique]

His "input" doesn't benefit the discussion at all, since all the angles have been covered during the course of this thread's and its predecessor's almost decade long existence.

All he does is enter a emotionally charged discussion to try and understand the murderer by using false equivalencies and ignoring points that are not in line with his dumbass worldview.

I very much understand being heated about it because actual brutal shit is going on and ONLY Russia is to blame for it so let's just firmly establish that my stance on basically everything Russia has done to Ukraine that we know about and everything they've done that we do not is complete barbarism and should be condemned in every way possible in every avenue possible. Fuck them and everything they've done.

But if they hadn't been absolute douchenozzle fuckwits and just sat whining in the UN that region X of Ukraine had more russian-speaking citizens than ukrainian-speaking ones and had historically been "theirs" or whatever, the people in the region democratically (and no Russian "elections" do not fucking count Putler) voted for leaving Ukraine and join Russia because they had a collective brain collapse or something nobody here would or at least should contest that right?

Exact same (supposed) goal by Russia but not achieved through shitstain tactics ergo I do get Triceron's separation of belief and action in this. It doesn't impact the condemnation of what is actually happening in Ukraine because it's exploring what original opinions caused Putler to order these horrific crimes done.

But it CAN be used to try and justify the bullshit so it imo cannot in any way be discussed without a very clear statement of condemnation of the actual actions taken which afaik Triceron did from the very beginning and is why I'm also veeeeery clear on how much of a shitstain I consider Putin and the (unfortunately majority of) Russia to be for what they've done.

[Triceron]

I think the fact that every single unmoderated forum on the internet eventually devolves into white nationalists openly spreading hate and blaming everything on the Jews kinda proves that point fairly well. The marketplace for ideas on the internet will always cater to the lowest common denominator which is why some amount of moderation is necessary.

That unfortunately that is the byproduct of freedom of speech. There is no true moderation of opinion.

And even as I say I am pro free speech, I understand the same consequences of what it protects, which would include the spreading of deconstructive values like hate and disinformation. And not just in terms of racism, I'm also talking about everything related to socio political division. There is no moderation for disinformation to stimy anti-vax, because anti vaxx is freedom of speech and belief. Or hell, flat earthers. There is no control over the stupid either. And how many people believe the moon landings are fake? It grows each year. And don't even get me started on the innumerable amount of genders one could have.

That is the price of freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of information. And I still support it, because I do believe it's in one's right to believe whatever values they choose, as false or as dangerous as they may be. It should be a personal thing.

To act on those values, or to enforce them on others... that is an entirely different discussion.

[Iphie]

Finnish authorities have arrested a russian neo-nazi Jan Igorovits Petrovsky. He acted as a commander of the Rusich group, a paramilitary neo-nazi group in 2014-2015...Which is considered a terrorist organization. He also, alongside his little group of nazis, less than surprisingly, is suspected of war crimes that happened during those years in Luhansk and Donetsk region. Rusich group has connections to Wagner and possibly acted as a part of Wagner. Mister Petrovsky also is sactioned by EU and USA.

Ukraine has requested Finland to extradite him.

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/...omessa/8764510

Finnish article as the news piece seems to be brand new. Use a translator.

Isn't that guy from MV-lehti also a russian asset? (MV-lehti = Mitä Vittua lehti)

[Gigantique]

That unfortunately that is the byproduct of freedom of speech. There is no true moderation of opinion.

And even as I say I am pro free speech, I understand the same consequences of what it protects, which would include the spreading of deconstructive values like hate and disinformation. And not just in terms of racism, I'm also talking about everything related to socio political division. There is no moderation for disinformation to stimy anti-vax, because anti vaxx is freedom of speech and belief. Or hell, flat earthers. There is no control over the stupid either. And how many people believe the moon landings are fake? It grows each year. And don't even get me started on the innumerable amount of genders one could have.

That is the price of freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of information. And I still support it, because I do believe it's in one's right to believe whatever values they choose, as false or as dangerous as they may be. It should be a personal thing.

To act on those values, or to enforce them on others... that is an entirely different discussion.

Gotta disagree with you there on the premise that some thoughts and values should definitely be openly moderated and squashed for the bugs that they are. That is beliefs and values whose core principles and goal is to enforce some form of human rights violation upon others. Then the act of spreading the belief or opinion is in of itself attacking others because that's its entire point.

I can advocate for the Samii lands up in northern Norway to idk, become its own state instead of being a part of my country and arguing for that doesn't innately involve arguing for forcibly enforcing it upon the Samii people or the non-Samii living there but I cannot argue for exterminating the entire Samii people without automatically arguing for... Well, exterminating and entire culture of human beings.

One example (territorial disputes, moon landing is fake, flat earth or what have you) doesn't necessarily curbstomp the basic rights of other humans but the other example (death to all Samii, sterilise all gays to 'cure' homosexuality etc) cannot exist as a stance without wanting to curbstomp those basic rights and should be condemned even in a belief/value format.

[Gabriel]

I think the fact that every single unmoderated forum on the internet eventually devolves into white nationalists openly spreading hate and blaming everything on the Jews kinda proves that point fairly well. The marketplace for ideas on the internet will always cater to the lowest common denominator which is why some amount of moderation is necessary.

The benefit of the unmoderated hell holes is that you can be just as nasty to the Nazis as they are in their intentions behind the veil of being ohh so enlightened and rational. Often their entire strategy hinges upon being protected by the "librul censorship" that they claim to hate so much.

I very much understand being heated about it because actual brutal shit is going on and ONLY Russia is to blame for it so let's just firmly establish that my stance on basically everything Russia has done to Ukraine that we know about and everything they've done that we do not is complete barbarism and should be condemned in every way possible in every avenue possible. Fuck them and everything they've done.

But if they hadn't been absolute douchenozzle fuckwits and just sat whining in the UN that region X of Ukraine had more russian-speaking citizens than ukrainian-speaking ones and had historically been "theirs" or whatever, the people in the region democratically (and no Russian "elections" do not fucking count Putler) voted for leaving Ukraine and join Russia because they had a collective brain collapse or something nobody here would or at least should contest that right?

Exact same (supposed) goal by Russia but not achieved through shitstain tactics ergo I do get Triceron's separation of belief and action in this. It doesn't impact the condemnation of what is actually happening in Ukraine because it's exploring what original opinions caused Putler to order these horrific crimes done.

But it CAN be used to try and justify the bullshit so it imo cannot in any way be discussed without a very clear statement of condemnation of the actual actions taken which afaik Triceron did from the very beginning and is why I'm also veeeeery clear on how much of a shitstain I consider Putin and the (unfortunately majority of) Russia to be for what they've done.

The problem with Russia is that you can't trust anything that the Russian government says or does. If there had been referendums in parts of Ukraine about joining Russia, the results would be worth precisely nothing as long as the Russian Federation as an entity exists. The tentacles of corruption and foul play are borrowed in too deep.

[Saradain]

Isn't that guy from MV-lehti also a russian asset? (MV-lehti = Mitä Vittua lehti)

Only guy I recall by name is Ilja Janitskin. And he's dead. Of cancer.

[Gabriel]

Only guy I recall by name is Ilja Janitskin. And he's dead. Of cancer.

Thoughts and prayers.

[Saradain]

Thoughts and prayers.

I believe russians are going to require both, now that Ukraine can "just enter Crimea" with a squad and do fun stuff there. And last I read, Robotyne region seems to be liberated by now. Blood for the blood god!

[Iphie]

Only guy I recall by name is Ilja Janitskin. And he's dead. Of cancer.

Ah, ok, well I seemed to recall something like him having connections in Donetsk (and with the Soldiers of Odin)

I believe russians are going to require both, now that Ukraine can "just enter Crimea" with a squad and do fun stuff there. And last I read, Robotyne region seems to be liberated by now. Blood for the blood god!

I'll allow it...this time, next time get a decent god.

[Gigantique]

The benefit of the unmoderated hell holes is that you can be just as nasty to the Nazis as they are in their intentions behind the veil of being ohh so enlightened and rational. Often their entire strategy hinges upon being protected by the "librul censorship" that they claim to hate so much.



The problem with Russia is that you can't trust anything that the Russian government says or does. If there had been referendums in parts of Ukraine about joining Russia, the results would be worth precisely nothing as long as the Russian Federation as an entity exists. The tentacles of corruption and foul play are borrowed in too deep.

Oh absolutely any statement made from Russia would be trusted as far as I would trust a fart after eating fifteen times the daily recommended amount of laxatives. It would have to be verified from outside sources and even then I wouldn't trust it until three more had verified it because it's Russia and what sane population would ever willingly become part of that hellhole.

Which is why I tried to move the concept itself to grounds where such blatant corruption wasn't manifest (Samii Norway) to show that the concept of discussing/exploring what beliefs or "values" might have motivated the acts is not automatically defending it or agreeing with it in any way and can actually help us understand it so we can effectively counter it the next time some scum (probably Russia again if they survive this with any force left) of a nation tries to use it as justification.

[YUPPIE]

I think ironically Zelenksy himself has unknowingly illustrated why people are reluctant to let Ukraine join NATO.

See, he's started a massive anti-corruption campaign that is seldom mentioned here, but it's not uncommon for him to root out traitors or corrupt officials in the higher hierarchy of his own government and military. That's almost every other few weeks. If corruption still runs that deep in Ukraine, it will just end up being another Hungary if it joins EU/NATO.

[Gorsameth]

everyone is reluctant to let Ukraine join NATO because Ukraine joining NATO would immediately put the entirety of NATO in a direct war with Russia.

Corruption doesn't even enter into the consideration at any point.
Ukraine joining NATO while at war with Russia is a direct declaration of war between NATO and Russia.

[Gabriel]

I think ironically Zelenksy himself has unknowingly illustrated why people are reluctant to let Ukraine join NATO.

See, he's started a massive anti-corruption campaign that is seldom mentioned here, but it's not uncommon for him to root out traitors or corrupt officials in the higher hierarchy of his own government and military. That's almost every other few weeks. If corruption still runs that deep in Ukraine, it will just end up being another Hungary if it joins EU/NATO.

So Zelensky doing something about the corruption shows that Ukraine is too corrupt? My mind = truly blown.

[Gigantique]

Afaik NATO also has a clause where no nation currently in open conflict can join?

[Gorsameth]

Afaik NATO also has a clause where no nation currently in open conflict can join?

Correct, because (again) it would immediately pull NATO into a war.

[Poopymonster]

Ah, ok, well I seemed to recall something like him having connections in Donetsk (and with the Soldiers of Odin)



I'll allow it...this time, next time get a decent god.

When life hands you lemons? FIND A NEW GOD!
Godberry! King of the juice.

[Triceron]

Gotta disagree with you there on the premise that some thoughts and values should definitely be openly moderated and squashed for the bugs that they are. That is beliefs and values whose core principles and goal is to enforce some form of human rights violation upon others. Then the act of spreading the belief or opinion is in of itself attacking others because that's its entire point.

I believe in moderation to a certain degree, definitely. Without moderation, it'd just be literally trolls everywhere.

But I do feel that there's certain limits to moderation. We can see that before Twitter was bought out, there was a LOT of bias in what was being censored, what wasn't. I am not in favour of that, and even as chaotic as X is, it seems like a more open speaking platform than what Twitter used to be. It's no longer as progressive politically agenda-driven

One example (territorial disputes, moon landing is fake, flat earth or what have you) doesn't necessarily curbstomp the basic rights of other humans but the other example (death to all Samii, sterilise all gays to 'cure' homosexuality etc) cannot exist as a stance without wanting to curbstomp those basic rights and should be condemned even in a belief/value format.

I absolutely agree.

The only difference in my own belief is that I don't think there's any actual way to deal with these crimes. So much of that continues to happen in our world, from human trafficing to human rights violations to blatant genocide. And the UN cares not about solving any of these issues, and there's not really any 'World Police' to appeal to in order to combat this. It comes down to the governmenting bodies of each individual country, and our political leaders are more interested in securing finances to win the next election than they are in solving the critical problems of their own nations. Or in the case of the countries committing such atrocities, it's just Tuesday.

[Relapses]

I believe in moderation to a certain degree, definitely. Without moderation, it'd just be literally trolls everywhere.

But I do feel that there's certain limits to moderation. We can see that before Twitter was bought out, there was a LOT of bias in what was being censored, what wasn't. I am not in favour of that, and even as chaotic as X is, it seems like a more open speaking platform than what Twitter used to be. It's no longer as progressive politically agenda-driven.

Man -- this is such a great example of the exact thing I mentioned. Musk takes over, vows to "unmoderate" stuff and suddenly bigotry, white supremacy and blaming everything on the Jews increases ten-thousand fold on the platform. There's a reason the phrase "Blue Check squad" has been coined. Fascists and far-right conservatives found a way to get their dogshit views signal boosted so that's exactly what they're doing. The guy who recently shot a mother of 9 for putting up a pride flag had a viral tweet that openly called for violence against minorities. Like, we're seeing the results of unmoderated social media play out in front of our eyes and you're taking a moderate "both sides" approach.