Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Triceron]

Man -- this is such a great example of the exact thing I mentioned. Musk takes over, vows to "unmoderate" stuff and suddenly bigotry, white supremacy and blaming everything on the Jews increases ten-thousand fold on the platform. There's a reason the phrase "Blue Check squad" has been coined. Fascists and far-right conservatives found a way to get their dogshit views signal boosted so that's exactly what they're doing. The guy who recently shot a mother of 9 for putting up a pride flag had a viral tweet that openly called for violence against minorities. Like, we're seeing the results of unmoderated social media play out in front of our eyes and you're taking a moderate "both sides" approach.

Because that is still freedom of speech no matter how you cut it.

You can't really have it both ways, brother. Either you are for silencing one side and taking away their freedoms (as was happening with Twitter), or you're for freedom for all equally and not having anyone's right to speak taken away. There's no happy medium where you're allowed to be Big Brother and still promoting freedom.

[Relapses]

Because that is still freedom of speech no matter how you cut it.

You can't really have it both ways, brother. Either you are for silencing one side and taking away their freedoms (as was happening with Twitter), or you're for freedom for all equally and not having anyone's right to speak taken away. There's no happy medium where you're allowed to be Big Brother and still promoting freedom.

Come on man, I'm sure even you would agree that we shouldn't be giving racist fuckwits a platform where they can pay money to signal boost their views. There's a difference between free speech and using your platform to bring attention to obvious political motivations. You know, like the owner of the platform forcing a subtweet with Donald Trump's mugshot and a website begging for campaign donations on it to be broadcast to every single Twitter user. Your argument is: "Well, I think it was too left before so I'm perfectly okay with it being a far-right shit show now."

[Triceron]

Come on man, I'm sure even you would agree that we shouldn't be giving racist fuckwits a platform where they can pay money to signal boost their views. There's a difference between free speech and using your platform to bring attention to obvious political motivations. You know, like the owner of the platform forcing a subtweet with Donald Trump's mugshot and a website begging for campaign donations on it to be broadcast to every single Twitter user. Your argument is: "Well, I think it was too left before so I'm perfectly okay with it being a far-right shit show now."

My point is Censorship is censorship. It takes freedoms away from all of us in one way or another. And the conversation we would have to have is what we're all okay with being taken away, and what is still considered protected by freedom of speech.


As I said, I'm not opposed to moderation. I simply don't know enough about the nature of what you're talking about to really make a comment on extremist behaviour.

IMO, there's hate on both sides of extremes. Far Left, Far Right, there's hate on both sides in different forms. If not racial discrimination, then there's gender discrimination, or cancel culture, etc. IMO they're all bad, but I don't know if they're all worth censoring or moderating. And despite the greatest efforts to moderate it all, the moderation may be prone to certain biases motivated by political agendas; something I'm quite opposed to. Even X is prone to it, but so far it's showing to be much more relaxed than Twitter was, which is all I'm commenting about. That doesn't make me a supporter of any extremist ideals. I am a supporter of freedom of speech, and recognizing all types of speech that is protected by constitutional right. If the comments you're talking about are specifically hate speech that is not protected, and is deemed criminal in any way, then yes I would agree with moderation. I simply don't know how X operates in dealing with such things.

[Flarelaine]

Toto, I have a feeling this is not about the war anymore.

Please post on topic.

[Nymrohd]

I very much understand being heated about it because actual brutal shit is going on and ONLY Russia is to blame for it so let's just firmly establish that my stance on basically everything Russia has done to Ukraine that we know about and everything they've done that we do not is complete barbarism and should be condemned in every way possible in every avenue possible. Fuck them and everything they've done.

But if they hadn't been absolute douchenozzle fuckwits and just sat whining in the UN that region X of Ukraine had more russian-speaking citizens than ukrainian-speaking ones and had historically been "theirs" or whatever, the people in the region democratically (and no Russian "elections" do not fucking count Putler) voted for leaving Ukraine and join Russia because they had a collective brain collapse or something nobody here would or at least should contest that right?

Exact same (supposed) goal by Russia but not achieved through shitstain tactics ergo I do get Triceron's separation of belief and action in this. It doesn't impact the condemnation of what is actually happening in Ukraine because it's exploring what original opinions caused Putler to order these horrific crimes done.

But it CAN be used to try and justify the bullshit so it imo cannot in any way be discussed without a very clear statement of condemnation of the actual actions taken which afaik Triceron did from the very beginning and is why I'm also veeeeery clear on how much of a shitstain I consider Putin and the (unfortunately majority of) Russia to be for what they've done.

The idea that the right of self-determination can overwhelm state sovereignty if there is an overwhelming public response for secession is deeply problematic. Yes, it has loosely been used to excuse carving off land from sovereign states. But a very necessary precursor in every case I can think of where the international community largely agreed to such action was acts of genocide against the local populace by that state. While violence by the Ukrainian state against the russian speaking population in those areas was recorded, no one can state in good faith that they were acts of genocide. To say that all you need is a referendum majority for people to secede is to end state sovereignty and the relative stability of borders of the past few decades.

[Corvus]

Ukraine have taken Robotyne and seem to be picking up the pace in that region. Tokmak, a crucial transport and supply hub for russia, has come under artillery fire for the first time as well due to Ukrainian advances.

On the Crimea raid, russia admits it happened but claimed a single security guard in his underwear held off the entire raiding force by himself until help arrived, at which point they killed 15-20 raiders without loss. I'd they are putting out claims so preposterous it means things really went bad for them.

Ukraine put out a video from one of the boats leaving the scene and in the background there are a lot of explosions happening. It was too far for artillery to reach and too many for missiles, with more than 20 explosions, so they might have been timed charges that had been planted.

The location was an important radar site and missile launch site, with antiship missile batteries all defended by a s400 that had been destroyed the previous day. Take out that stuff and Ukraine may have opened a gap in the air defences there for drones to get through

[Egomaniac]

Because that is still freedom of speech no matter how you cut it.

You can't really have it both ways, brother. Either you are for silencing one side and taking away their freedoms (as was happening with Twitter), or you're for freedom for all equally and not having anyone's right to speak taken away. There's no happy medium where you're allowed to be Big Brother and still promoting freedom.

Twitter has never been able to take away anyone's freedoms.

[Santti]

Twitter has never been able to take away anyone's freedoms.

Yeah. It's amazing how people are still so confused about it. Getting banned from a privately owned platform like Twitter is not a violation of ones freedoms, no matter how arbitrary the bans are.

Not to mention that in account creation, you literally have to agree with the terms of service that says they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. And that's not something Musk did. That's standard practice.

[Relapses]

I don't want to derail this thread much further with the topic of free speech, censorship and Twitter but I think that having a centrist opinion on the subject indirectly feeds into the continued dissemination of misinformation that's coming from Russia. It's the perfect trojan horse. Loaded political messaging gets a free pass from these people because it's "just words." Next thing you know, some brainiac liberal scrolling Blue Checkmarks on Twitter reads the fucking Winter Soldier activation sequence of Russian propaganda and they come into threads like this zooted up and fully loaded with a fresh batch of anti-Ukraine talking points.

[Surfd]

But I do feel that there's certain limits to moderation. We can see that before Twitter was bought out, there was a LOT of bias in what was being censored, what wasn't. I am not in favour of that, and even as chaotic as X is, it seems like a more open speaking platform than what Twitter used to be. It's no longer as progressive politically agenda-driven.

This is pure, unadulterated bullshit, and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting it. It was conclusively proven, multiple times, that Twitter was NEVER "progressive politically agenda-driven" before the Muskrat got his shitstained self-absorbed Tech-Bro hands all over it. If anything, it was demonstrated that Twitter was actively handling the right-wing crazy with kid gloves and letting them get away with shit they should never have been allowed to get away with for years. The only "bias" in their censorship was usually in favor of the right-wing crazy, not against it. The only reason there was a perceived appearance of bias vs the nutjobs was because the sheer volume of bullshit coming out of their direction inevitably resulted in them picking up bans and moderation penalties simply because their views were shit, not because their views happened to belong to a particular political affiliation.

And then musk bought the platform, and threw even that little bit of filtration out the window, resulting in what we have now: Unfiltered raw sewage passing itself off as "free speech".

[diller]

I think ironically Zelenksy himself has unknowingly illustrated why people are reluctant to let Ukraine join NATO.

See, he's started a massive anti-corruption campaign that is seldom mentioned here, but it's not uncommon for him to root out traitors or corrupt officials in the higher hierarchy of his own government and military. That's almost every other few weeks. If corruption still runs that deep in Ukraine, it will just end up being another Hungary if it joins EU/NATO.

/facepalm

He's doing that because the mainly the EU stated that they had to fix corruption before they could be considered for membership.

Corruption doesn't even enter into the consideration at any point.

Wrong, it's an absolute requirement to join either organization.

- - - Updated - - -

but I think that having a centrist opinion on the subject

There is no such thing as a centrist opinion.

[Gorsameth]

Wrong, it's an absolute requirement to join either organization.

Sure, but its also absolutely irrelevant while Ukraine is at war.

The #1 reason Ukraine cannot join currently is the war. And until the war is over there isn't much point in discussing or worrying about all the other reasons Ukraine can't join NATO.

[alach]

Some news from the last few days...

Starting with perhaps my favourite,

Latvia Donates Another Mi-17 Helicopter to Ukraine

The Latvian Armed Forces have donated another Soviet-era Mi-17 helicopter to Ukraine as part of military assistance to counter Russian aggression.

"The National Armed Forces of Latvia have delivered another Mi-17 helicopter to Ukraine. Ukraine is successfully fighting and regaining more and more occupied territories. Latvia will stand with Ukraine side by side until total victory of Ukraine!" Ināra Mūrniece, Latvian Minister of Defence, announced on Twitter.

Latvia made a political decision to transfer all helicopters under its armed forces' control to Ukraine.

Furthermore, the Latvian government recently decided to donate additional 38 vehicles confiscated from drunk drivers to Ukraine free of charge.

According to official data, Latvia's total military assistance to Ukraine amounts to 370 million euros, making it the highest contribution relative to GDP among Kyiv's allies.

Russia Withdraws 'Game Changing ' T-14 Armata Tank After Brief Frontline Run

Armored forces from Russia's southern military district (SMD) were given T-14 "Armata" main battle tanks (MBTs) for combat operations, according to the state news agency Tass, which noted that this was Moscow's first official confirmation of their use in Ukraine.

"The Armata was actively used by the (SMD) in combat operations," a military source told the agency. "Several units participated in battle to see how the tank would perform. They were then withdrawn from the front line."

....

Despite the advanced attributes being touted by experts and Russia's military, the roll-out of the tank has been plagued with delays and technical problems.

Before it was unveiled in 2015 during Russia's annual Victory Day parade in Moscow, the tank appeared to unexpectedly stop during a rehearsal.

Meanwhile, British defense officials said in January that Russia's forces were reluctant to accept the first tranche of T-14s allocated to them because they were in such poor condition.

The U.K. Ministry of Defense said that the tank had been dogged by delays and faced a host of manufacturing problems. Also, Russia's deployment of the tanks would be most likely for propaganda purposes because Russian commanders "are unlikely to trust the vehicle," the defense officials added.

And of course the big news, happening at the moment...

Ukraine war latest: Ukrainian forces have broken through Russian main lines of defense in some areas, top US general says

Key developments on Aug. 25:

Ukrainian troops have broken through Russian first lines of defense in some areas
Ukraine strikes Russian brigade in Crimea
Russia claims destroying 42 drones over Crimea
Russia launches two strikes against Odesa Oblast overnight
Border Guards: Number of Wagner fighters in Belarus decreases, Lukashenko denies mercenaries’ departure
Throughout their counteroffensive, Ukrainian troops have managed to attack through Russia's first main defensive belt in some areas along the front lines, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley said in an interview with Al-Mamlaka TV, a Jordanian public broadcaster, published on Aug. 25.

"Specifically on the axes of advance that (Ukrainian forces) are attacking right now, (Ukrainian forces) have attacked through the main defense belt," Milley said.

The chairman noted that Russian troops have been preparing a deep line of defense for many months and it has "mine fields, dragon's teeth, and tank ditches. It's a very complex set of defensive preparations that the Ukrainians are fighting through."

CNN also reported on Aug. 25, citing Ukraine's General Staff, that there are signs Ukrainian troops have broken through Russian defenses along the southern front line in Zaporizhzhia Oblast.

Milley told Al-Mamlaka that “it’s too early to say” whether Ukraine’s counteroffensive has succeeded or failed, calling the push “very bloody, slow, long and difficult.”

He added that after having liberated “a considerable part" of lands occupied by Russia, Ukrainian forces have a “significant amount of power remaining, and it’s not over yet.”

[shimerra]

Because that is still freedom of speech no matter how you cut it.

You can't really have it both ways, brother. Either you are for silencing one side and taking away their freedoms (as was happening with Twitter), or you're for freedom for all equally and not having anyone's right to speak taken away. There's no happy medium where you're allowed to be Big Brother and still promoting freedom.

No one's freedom is taken away by not being allowed to post on Twitter. And literally only idiots think that. Your freedom's are also no absolute. Just try shouting fire in a crowded theatre. Or threaten the life of the President. There are and should be limits.

Freedom of speech is protection from the government silencing your views. Not private citizens or companies. You are supporting the opposite of freedom which is forcing private citizens to promote/support speech they do not agree with. You are not entitled to tweet on Twitter any more than you are entitled to enter my home at 2 AM and use my sound system to blast racist music because Twitter owns Twitter, it's software, the servers, and everything else the company consists of and thanks to property rights among other rights they are allowed to choose who uses it just as I'm allowed to decide whether or not you get to enter my home and use my sound system. This is quite literally kindergarten level civics and if you understood even the most basic elements of your rights under the US constitution you should really get that.

See to do what you want, which is to force Twitter to allow racist/bigoted/or really any view whoever owns Twitter doesn't like, to host content is exactly the Big Brother type shit you claim to hate. Because that's what you're essentially calling for. Forcing private citizens to do something and stripping away their freedom to choose who they associate with and allow to access their website. It's no different than forcing a church to advertise pornography.

When Trump was banned from Twitter his freedom of speech wasn't silenced. He was free to say what he wanted where he wanted anywhere else other than Twitter. And people were free to tell him to go fuck himself off their platforms so he cried and made his own. He has no right to demand access to Twitter's private property/platform and they have every right to kick him off their site. Or had I should say since Elon now owns it so it's now his right. And guess what? Trump has every single right to ban me from Truth social just as much as Twitter had every right to ban him. Not that I could ever drink enough alcohol to be convinced to sign up to that cesspool.

If you want to have a separate talk about the digital age that's fine. An argument could be made for some of these sites becoming a digital "commons" of sorts. I personally think in today's world internet access needs to be treated more like a public utility like water or power. But as of now you're the one pushing the Big Brother shit by trying to force private citizens to promote/host speech the don't wish to.

[Gorsameth]

Because that is still freedom of speech no matter how you cut it.

You can't really have it both ways, brother. Either you are for silencing one side and taking away their freedoms (as was happening with Twitter), or you're for freedom for all equally and not having anyone's right to speak taken away. There's no happy medium where you're allowed to be Big Brother and still promoting freedom.

It appears your one of those people who doesn't know what Freedom of speech actually means.

It means the government doesn't prosecute you based on what you say.
It doesn't mean the rest of society has to accept your bullshit, nor does it render you immune to the consequences of your speech by individuals or businesses.

[Makabreska]

It appears your one of those people who doesn't know what Freedom of speech actually means.

It means the government doesn't prosecute you based on what you say.
It doesn't mean the rest of society has to accept your bullshit, nor does it render you immune to the consequences of your speech by individuals or businesses.

To have such an outspoken political guy not knowing it is really baffling. But then again, he also had issues with pointing out right/wrong in this war.

[DarkAmbient]

Putin orders Wagner to swear allegiance. Echoes of Hitler, Ernst Rohm and the SA, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Meanwhile, another 'pyrotechnics warehouse' mysteriously goes up in flames

[Relapses]

There is no such thing as a centrist opinion.

I agree completely -- that was more an elaboration of the post before we were reminded to stay on-topic about the Russian invasion. I argued with that guy for two pages for his infuriating refusal to take a side. Every person I've ever seen hold these positions has been an ideological conservative LARPing as a progressive on the internet because being forthcoming with such views (especially here) is met with a lot of hostility and their fragile egos can't handle the criticism.

[Iphie]

Putin orders Wagner to swear allegiance. Echoes of Hitler, Ernst Rohm and the SA, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Meanwhile, another 'pyrotechnics warehouse' mysteriously goes up in flames

Night of the Long Knives soon then as well. If this won't push them into defense.


Must be a typo, Russia doesn't have neo-nazis...right? (/s)

[YUPPIE]

Russia is considering mobilizing another 450,000 people for the war. That explains the absorption of Wagner.

They will just never run out of bodies.