1. #34401
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    No one else can judge you because they haven't had a war or other kind of oppression forced on them? Sounds like you want to ensure no one ever will judge you. Arabs in arab spring at least earned their regime change, but apparently russians get the comfort of playing WoW with us and immunity to any criticism for a genocide they enabled and support by not opposing it
    No one who hasn't fought against their government gets to say that everyone else should be willing to do so.

    I'll even dare to guess that if your problem with this is that people from specific countries are playing the same videogame as you, you're not the kind of person who would fight either.

  2. #34402
    Over 9000! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Russians who have left Russia all say the same thing about ratings. They are either A) Just made up on the spot or B) Do not include 90-95% of people who are called who immediately hang up because they don't want to give an answer that gives you 3 options. A) Special Tea B) Gulag C) Window View.
    Should specify I meant pre-fixing ratings. Independent polls still shown majority of Russians supporting Putin.
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  3. #34403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    No one who hasn't fought against their government gets to say that everyone else should be willing to do so.
    Alright then, russian civilians keep praising their men raping, pillaging and murdering, and once (if) they return home, all life can be good again. Nothing to judge.

    But let Russia continue their miserable shitshow as long as they can, sanctions hopefully increase to make the civilians bit more encouraged to do something as their goverment is their mandated collective will (as per definition of democracy), ergo, not overthrowing the said goverment means they approve all the good and bad that come out of it?

    And Russia officially is a democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    I'll even dare to guess that if your problem with this is that people from specific countries are playing the same videogame as you, you're not the kind of person who would fight either.
    You don't know shit about me anyway, and I merely used the "play WoW with us" as an example of them passively accepting the genocide
    Last edited by Saradain; 2023-08-30 at 04:54 PM.

  4. #34404
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    You don't know shit about me anyway, and I merely used the "play WoW with us" as an example of them passively accepting the genocide
    True. I can only get a basic impression based on what you write here. And it's not a great one.

    I hope you get to live a comfortable and happy life, and are still able to learn why your current philosophy wouldn't make the world a better place.

  5. #34405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    True. I can only get a basic impression based on what you write here. And it's not a great one.

    I hope you get to live a comfortable and happy life, and are still able to learn why your current philosophy wouldn't make the world a better place.
    And you are entitled to your opinion about this matter. Whether which one of us gets the final say what is right, and what is wrong, we'll see what happens when the war is over.

    At least I won't be the one welcoming a genocidal murderer back home from his little murder holiday in Ukraine and pretending I'm a good human being for harboring the said war criminal as a family member.

    So I don't know why my philosophy would be impossible to understand. Because one day, all the russians who still are alive in Ukraine, may permanently return to Russia and the fact that they are war criminals for being part of a genocide (just like every nazi of old are still hunted, no matter how big or small of a role they had) will not change. It'd be quite a horror to live in a populace where majority of able-bodied men are all war criminals, now with PSTD or worse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of course it needs to be added that yes, Moscow and St Peterburg are mostly mobilization-free probably, and they are far bigger cities than I have ever visited. But the rest of Russia where most men were forcibly drafted...It's gonna be a well-deserved shitshow for them if the war criminals return there to possibly commit similar crimes on russians this time. They after all, wished their men the best of luck in taking part of the genocide.

  6. #34406
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    And you are entitled to your opinion about this matter. Whether which one of us gets the final say what is right, and what is wrong, we'll see what happens when the war is over.

    At least I won't be the one welcoming a genocidal murderer back home from his little murder holiday in Ukraine and pretending I'm a good human being for harboring the said war criminal as a family member.

    So I don't know why my philosophy would be impossible to understand. Because one day, all the russians who still are alive in Ukraine, may permanently return to Russia and the fact that they are war criminals for being part of a genocide (just like every nazi of old are still hunted, no matter how big or small of a role they had) will not change. It'd be quite a horror to live in a populace where majority of able-bodied men are all war criminals, now with PSTD or worse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of course it needs to be added that yes, Moscow and St Peterburg are mostly mobilization-free probably, and they are far bigger cities than I have ever visited. But the rest of Russia where most men were forcibly drafted...It's gonna be a well-deserved shitshow for them if the war criminals return there to possibly commit similar crimes on russians this time. They after all, wished their men the best of luck in taking part of the genocide.
    So what? Should the West pull a page from China's book and open re-education camps for Russians? Should we force all Russians to learn Ukrainian as punishment for losing? Ban the use of the Russian language in all public discourse? Or would you only be happy once you see a couple hundred million Ruskies glassed?

    Like, the response to a government's genocidal tendencies shouldn't be genocide in the other direction. This is just as bad as what you're accusing the Russians of doing. There are humanitarian resolutions to the conflict which begin with an understanding that a vast majority of Russia's population is... well, human.

  7. #34407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So what? Should the West pull a page from China's book and open re-education camps for Russians? Should we force all Russians to learn Ukrainian as punishment for losing? Ban the use of the Russian language in all public discourse? Or would you only be happy once you see a couple hundred million Ruskies glassed?

    Like, the response to a government's genocidal tendencies shouldn't be genocide in the other direction. This is just as bad as what you're accusing the Russians of doing. There are humanitarian resolutions to the conflict which begin with an understanding that a vast majority of Russia's population is... well, human.
    The war simply needs to affect them as they are the attacker starting an unprovoked war of genocide. It doesn't need to mean direct lethal harm on the civilian population and it should not be that. But sanctions severely affecting more and more everyday life to remind them that there's an option for the non-combatants to rouse some discontent. And the obvious of their loved ones coming back in a casket or not at all, as is russian respect to their fellow soldiers left to die while they flee like vermin.

    Offensive war should always carry a hefty consequence for the attacker, not leave them unaffected like it was an easy peasy camping trip that no one even talks about after its over and done. Don't think I even suggested a re-education camp, genocide of russians of any kind. Or a nuclear response what I gather you mean with "glassed".

    In the end we cannot force russians to revolt, but it is an option that would end the useless sacrifice of both sides that very well concerns them as their men are the ones doing the most dying. But at least the finns know that russians simply prefer to be goaded like mindless beasts as passivity is their grave sin. We finns know russians don't even fight their own wars. They use their subjugated peoples...as seen by the mobilization of the ethnic minorities as priority.

  8. #34408
    Do you imagine that Russian civilians are living as comfortably as you?
    ...omg

  9. #34409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Do you imagine that Russian civilians are living as comfortably as you?
    ...omg
    I don't, but as I also wish that the war would affect them to a point they might start showing actual discontent, it clearly needs more. Or why do you think sanctions were put in place to begin with since they surely affect the civilian population although it is the goverment and the army doing bad things?

    Asking if a 3rd world country people are as comfy as I am in a first world country feels rather pointless.

  10. #34410
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    What does vilifying the Russian populace achieve? I get that it makes broader anti-Russian statements easier to make... but outside of that, I really don't see the benefit of universally condemning an entire population due to the actions of its authoritarian government.
    It helps in making sure that we don't AGAIN make the same mistakes with Russia. Putin isn't an anomaly. He is a product of the Russian society. Unless the entire Russian society is held accountable to at least some degree, we will have another Putin in 30 years and all this plays out exactly like it does right now.

  11. #34411
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    The war simply needs to affect them as they are the attacker starting an unprovoked war of genocide. It doesn't need to mean direct lethal harm on the civilian population and it should not be that. But sanctions severely affecting more and more everyday life to remind them that there's an option for the non-combatants to rouse some discontent. And the obvious of their loved ones coming back in a casket or not at all, as is russian respect to their fellow soldiers left to die while they flee like vermin.

    Offensive war should always carry a hefty consequence for the attacker, not leave them unaffected like it was an easy peasy camping trip that no one even talks about after its over and done. Don't think I even suggested a re-education camp, genocide of russians of any kind. Or a nuclear response what I gather you mean with "glassed".

    In the end we cannot force russians to revolt, but it is an option that would end the useless sacrifice of both sides that very well concerns them as their men are the ones doing the most dying. But at least the finns know that russians simply prefer to be goaded like mindless beasts as passivity is their grave sin. We finns know russians don't even fight their own wars. They use their subjugated peoples...as seen by the mobilization of the ethnic minorities as priority.
    Look, I get it. Even as an American, I have a Finnish last name so I've spent a lot of time researching the hostility between Russia and Finland as part of learning my own family's heritage. You have used a lot of dehumanizing language to describe Russians, however, and I think that this blatant Russophobia can have damaging effects once we do get to point where we're discussing what to do about the remaining population post-war.

  12. #34412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Do you imagine that Russian civilians are living as comfortably as you?
    ...omg
    Clearly they are still living too comfortably.

  13. #34413
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So what? Should the West pull a page from China's book and open re-education camps for Russians? Should we force all Russians to learn Ukrainian as punishment for losing? Ban the use of the Russian language in all public discourse? Or would you only be happy once you see a couple hundred million Ruskies glassed?

    Like, the response to a government's genocidal tendencies shouldn't be genocide in the other direction. This is just as bad as what you're accusing the Russians of doing. There are humanitarian resolutions to the conflict which begin with an understanding that a vast majority of Russia's population is... well, human.
    We should do play for play what was done to Germany post WW2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Look, I get it. Even as an American, I have a Finnish last name so I've spent a lot of time researching the hostility between Russia and Finland as part of learning my own family's heritage. You have used a lot of dehumanizing language to describe Russians, however, and I think that this blatant Russophobia can have damaging effects once we do get to point where we're discussing what to do about the remaining population post-war.
    Russophobia is a meaningless made up word. Literally everything "bad" that "Russophobes" believe and say about Russia has been shown to be true in the past 10 years.

  14. #34414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Look, I get it. Even as an American, I have a Finnish last name so I've spent a lot of time researching the hostility between Russia and Finland as part of learning my own family's heritage. You have used a lot of dehumanizing language to describe Russians, however, and I think that this blatant Russophobia can have damaging effects once we do get to point where we're discussing what to do about the remaining population post-war.
    I have little reason to not use dehumanizing language about russians when they start an offensive war every decade without repercussions. But I try to use it mostly about the orcs themselves, ie invading forces. Sure, I called them mindless beasts but that's just my way to repeating the old as hell truth that russians will never, ever, revolt. They will accept any creed, any regime as long as they can live their lives unaffected. They simply are so passive it boggles my mind.

    What comes to post-war era, realistically I can say Russia might not be split into multiple nations to shatter their capability of warmongering, and I don't need to imprison or punish the russian non-combatants as a whole. But each and every russian who contributed to genocide of Ukraine, should be hunted like nazis still are, for a century to come.

    And let's be honest here, dehumanizing language is easy to use on the internet. Should I meet oppressed russians who just want a peaceful life and are afraid of their own goverment targeting them, I don't see myself attacking them violently for being russians. It'll just take more convincing that russians would be ONLY a victim of their own goverment, instead of perfect passive populace willing to let genocide happen by the hands of their own men.

    This war hardly is about ending Russia as an independent state. Which is what they intend to do with Ukraine.

  15. #34415
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    It helps in making sure that we don't AGAIN make the same mistakes with Russia. Putin isn't an anomaly. He is a product of the Russian society. Unless the entire Russian society is held accountable to at least some degree, we will have another Putin in 30 years and all this plays out exactly like it does right now.
    A similar concern was had by Western powers when it came to Japan in WWII prior to dropping the nukes. Do you think we should do to Russia what we did to Japan post-WWII?
    Last edited by Relapses; 2023-08-30 at 06:33 PM.

  16. #34416
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    A similar concern was made by Western powers when it came to Japan in WWII prior to dropping the nukes. Do you think we should do to Russia what we did to Japan post-WWII?
    Like I said, we should do what was done to Germany post WW2.

  17. #34417
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Like I said, we should do what was done to Germany post WW2.
    Gotcha, you hadn't posted that prior to me asking that. Even if I agree with this on premise, it'll be a bit difficult to do that unless NATO intervenes at some point... which would mean we would've had a casual WWIII prior.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2023-08-30 at 06:50 PM.

  18. #34418
    The drone attacks on Moscow have been consistent to an unprecedented degree. Zelenksy also made an incredibly fucking ominous statement implying Ukraine might escalate attacks on Russian territory even with the knowledge they'll be on their own in those endeavors.

    The severity of these frequent drone attacks and incursions, though, is left in question because Russia has yet to declare it an attack on their sovereignty and enact the obvious

  19. #34419
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    and enact the obvious
    *ominous music chiming in the background*

    Nooks?

  20. #34420
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    The drone attacks on Moscow have been consistent to an unprecedented degree. Zelenksy also made an incredibly fucking ominous statement implying Ukraine might escalate attacks on Russian territory even with the knowledge they'll be on their own in those endeavors.

    The severity of these frequent drone attacks and incursions, though, is left in question because Russia has yet to declare it an attack on their sovereignty and enact the obvious
    Source, thank you.

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