Nobody (outside tankies) is saying that Russia should be absolved of all sins. My main gripe is the dehumanizing language and general lack of agency people seem to give to Russians because they're the bad guys. This concerning disregard for human life is the same type of cognitive dissonance the West still has almost a century later in regards to the morality of dropping nukes on Japan. This shit cuts deep and those wounds do not heal easily. Russia will eventually capitulate and this kind of rhetoric will just make it that much harder for the millions displaced by the war to reintegrate into society.
Last edited by Relapses; 2023-08-31 at 08:51 PM. Reason: words
There is no question of morality about dropping the bombs in Japan. It was a necessary evil, otherwise the war would have went on for years longer, causing the deaths of even more people.
Japan had to be delivered a strong message that they can't win, and continuing to fight would only lead to their utter annihilation.
I'd strongly recommend you watch this when you get a chance.
Imagine trying to justify the murder of a city full of civilians.
What if Russia decided to nuke Kiev to send Ukraine a strong message that they can't win and continuing to fight would only lead to their utter annihilation?
The people who dropped that bomb were war criminals who escaped justice, nothing more. If hell exists, everyone involved is rotting in it.
Last edited by enigma77; 2023-08-31 at 10:05 PM.
Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.
Ukraine's recent drone attacks killed a colonel on Russian soil.
Putin’s colonel killed in drone strike while mowing lawn at his Russian residence according to sources.
Alexei Chernykh, affiliated with Russia’s anti-corruption police, lost his life while performing gardening tasks at his rural home in Shchetinovka, Russia, which is located close to the Ukraine border.
The news of his death was reported by Russian Telegram channel Baza, which has ties to the country’s security services.
No official responsibility has been claimed by Ukraine for the drone strike. In past instances, Ukraine has distanced itself from attacks on Russian soil.
Baza stated on Monday that Chernykh was killed when “a Ukrainian drone dropped ammunition on his garden in Shchetinovka.”
I think most people would be perfectly welcoming of Russians back into the world if said Russians say something to the tune of "We were completely at fault. We will pay to rebuild Ukraine. Our efforts will never bring back those who our soldiers murdered, but we hope that our commitment to righting the wrongs that we perpetrated will at least help alleviate the suffering we caused. We have taken steps to ensure that no such cruel and petty person ever holds such a place of power in Russia again. We recognize Ukraine's sovereignty as a country, will accede to Ukraine's desires to join military alliances with other countries, and will raise no objections over other countries that are our neighbors who may wish to follow in their path. We welcome international oversight into ensuring both the legitimacy of the Russian government moving forwards and towards verifying that our efforts in rebuilding Ukraine are truthful and in earnest."
That would probably sit the situation square with most people, assuming Russia sticks to it.
Anything short of that, though? That's basically asking people to just "forgive and forget" while requiring basically nothing from Russia in return.
I mean, the first Nuclear bomb didn't get Japan to surrender. So I don't think that theory holds much water. (you can even expand that further to include the attempted coup by Japanese military officials following the second bombing intending to keep the emperor from surrendering so that Japan would remain in the war.) Nor did the previous campaign of Allied non-nuclear bombings on the Japanese mainland (done so intentionally with fire bombs because many Japanese towns and cities were still made of wood buildings at the time, and as such were intended to maximize destruction) which killed more people than the nuclear bombs, cause Japan to surrender.
Instead I put to you the question... is any bomb dropped on a civilian populace in a war "necessary?" Was Great Britain and the allies carpet bombing Germany, causing the estimated deaths of over 600,000 German civilians, "necessary?"
Don't get it twisted, I'm not some "there is no right or wrong" clod. Quite to the contrary, I don't think targeting civilians is right. But highlighting the Nuclear bombs specifically as "beyond the pale" given the landscape of warfare at the time (that being the nonexistence of M.A.D. and the poorly understood effects of radiation) is... rather trite. Would it have been "better" for all or some of those civilians to have died... to some untold number of other non-nuclear bombs, instead of two nuclear ones, as was the case in the preceding fire bombing campaigns that didn't cause Japan to surrender? If not... why were other bombing campaigns against other axis powers "right," or "less bad?" If Japan was "obviously beaten" when the nuclear bombings occurred, can we say that Germany wasn't "obviously beaten" while Allied bombing campaigns continued to target German cities, and that therefore those bombings were more justified?
I don't have an answer. But I'm also not pretending I do.
Last edited by Kaleredar; 2023-09-01 at 12:24 AM.
“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
Words to live by.
Not all all comparable. Japan was the one who started the war and were refusing to surrender. They were planning to continue fighting even after the bombs but only by the Emperor going over the heads of the government did they do so.
And from previous examples on places like Okinawa, it was known that the civilian population wouldn't surrender either. The invasion of the Japanese homelands would have seen millions of civilian dead.
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Satellite photos of Pskov shows 2 burnt out IL-76s and 2 more damaged. These planes have been doing shuttle runs to and from Iran so knocking them out will impede getting weapons from Iran.
Anybody seen the new updated Chinese territorial map? China claimed the entirety of Bolshoi Ussuriysky island which was previously split in two.
I don't think anybody does and I'd be extremely cautious to believe anybody who claims they do. War is terrible, through and through. To the monsters, we're the monsters. I just want to make sure that in our quest for complete narrative domination of the anticipated post-war morality throughline that we try not to forget innocent civilians often pay the most for ideas with the best intentions.
Interesting. It was to be expected China might start "renegotiating" with Russia.
However, I'm not really sure what that means. It says China, so does that mean China (PRC) or Republic of China (also known as Taiwan)? Because it also says that Taiwan never recognized these border treaties. So either this might potentially mean quite a lot, or not much at all.
Due to ROC not being in a position to negotiate treaties with PRC neighbours. ROC claims on the lands that neighbour china actually include areas the PRC had agreed to not being Chinese. I think that includes the entirety of Mongolia.
Not that in reality ROC truly claims them, it's just a funny little oversight due to Beijing/Taipei realities.