Russian invasion of Ukraine

[TrueNeutral]

I don't think you have much grasp of the situation from a Ukrainian perspective, they are not going to negotiate even without the current support.

I think they will be inclined to negotiate when the West starts to pull support for Ukraine.

Zelensky wanted to negotiate with Russia when the war started, but he didn't accept Russia's term. Then when Ukraine actually started pushing the Russians back and recaptured some land, Comedian Zelensky's arrogant ass decided to abandon diplomacy because he thought he was winning the war (lol).
Diplomacy > War.

[Gabriel]

I think they will be inclined to negotiate when the West starts to pull support for Ukraine.

Zelensky wanted to negotiate with Russia when the war started, but he didn't accept Russia's term. Then when Ukraine actually started pushing the Russians back and recaptured some land, Comedian Zelensky's arrogant ass decided to abandon diplomacy because he thought he was winning the war (lol).
Diplomacy > War.

Fuck diplomacy with Russia. It is a waste of time.

[Gorsameth]

I think they will be inclined to negotiate when the West starts to pull support for Ukraine.

Zelensky wanted to negotiate with Russia when the war started, but he didn't accept Russia's term. Then when Ukraine actually started pushing the Russians back and recaptured some land, Comedian Zelensky's arrogant ass decided to abandon diplomacy because he thought he was winning the war (lol).
Diplomacy > War.

Russia's publicly stated goal is to erase the Ukrainian identity. Your suggesting to negotiate with someone who wants to erase you from existence.

[Saradain]

I think they will be inclined to negotiate when the West starts to pull support for Ukraine.

Zelensky wanted to negotiate with Russia when the war started, but he didn't accept Russia's term. Then when Ukraine actually started pushing the Russians back and recaptured some land, Comedian Zelensky's arrogant ass decided to abandon diplomacy because he thought he was winning the war (lol).
Diplomacy > War.

Still haven't seen a reply. How did the last diplomacy with Russia go with "Ukraine loses nukes, Russia will never invade"?

Calls this a proxy war. Check.

Somehow Zelensky's previous occupation before presidency is relevant to anything. Check.

Your username couldn't be further from "neutral".

Keep on gobbling the Kremlin cool-aid. Ukraine cannot negotiate with the nazi state hell-bent on wiping them out. Keep dreaming that the support just vanishes.

[Corvus]

Reads as someone baselining RT and other russian news sources.

[TrueNeutral]

Russia's publicly stated goal is to erase the Ukrainian identity. Your suggesting to negotiate with someone who wants to erase you from existence.

I don't disagree with that. I do believe that the initial goal of Russia was to conquer the whole of Ukraine, but they failed and Putin has given up on his ambitions to conquer the whole of Ukraine, he just wants the Russian-speaking parts now.. you know, where the people living in those parts are sympathetic towards Russia anyway.

Just like the Stalin in 1939 who also wanted to conquer the whole of Finland and annex it like he did with the Baltic countries, but he failed, and the war ultimately ended with a long-lasting peace treaty that worked out for both parties, although at the cost of Finland having to give up some land to Russia, but lives were ultimately saved and that's what mattered.

I am not calling for Ukraine to give up on it's sovereignty, I'm just saying that diplomacy should be given a chance in order to save lives. Maybe we disagree on this, but whether you like it or not, the war will end on the negotiating table, and that could include Ukraine giving up some territory to Russia.

Still haven't seen a reply. How did the last diplomacy with Russia go with "Ukraine loses nukes, Russia will never invade"?

Is there a possibility that Putin will violate the peace agreement? Yes.
Is there a possibility that Putin will actually respect the peace agreement? Yes also.
Is Ukraine defeating Russia militarily and liberating all their territories the desirable outcome? Yes.
Can Ukraine defeat Russia militarily? No.
Will more poor Ukrainians end up dying if Ukraine insists on the battlefield solution (defeat Russia) without any gains? Yes, and dying in vain.

Now the question is, will NATO (including US) send troops to fight on behalf of Ukraine? No, because it is insane for two nuclear powers to be in a direct confrontation.

So what would you do if NATO isn't going to send troops and Ukraine can't win the war? The less evil option is to negotiate a peace agreement to stop the bloodshed immediately.

I don't know if Putin will come back for Ukraine in the future, but they should not let that possibility discourage them from diplomacy because it is also possible that Putin will respect the peace agreement and the relationship between Russia and Ukraine post-peace could be a positive one (think of US-Japan relationship post-war) that would give Putin no reasons to invade. We really don't know what will happen after they sign a peace agreement.

But what I know for sure is that Ukraine cannot win this war against the Russian behemoth without NATO intervention (which I am against) and more Ukrainians will die if they do not negotiate.

Your username couldn't be further from "neutral".

I'm not neutral when it comes to the war in Ukraine. I am pro-Ukrainian people, that's why I want Ukrainians to stop dying in this unwinnable war. However, if calling for peace to stop poor Ukrainians from dying makes me pro-Russia, so be it.

[Saradain]

I don't disagree with that. I do believe that the initial goal of Russia was to conquer the whole of Ukraine, but they failed and Putin has given up on his ambitions to conquer the whole of Ukraine, he just wants the Russian-speaking parts.. you know, where the people living in those parts are sympathetic towards Russia anyway.

Just like the Stalin in 1939 who also wanted to conquer the whole of Finland and annex it like he did with the Baltic countries, but he failed, and the war ultimately ended with a long-lasting peace treaty that worked out for both parties, although at the cost of Finland having to give up some land to Russia, but lives were ultimately saved and that's what mattered.

I am not calling for Ukraine to give up on it's sovereignty, I'm just saying that diplomacy should be given a chance in order to save lives. Maybe we disagree on this, but whether you like it or not, the war will end on the negotiating table, and that could include Ukraine giving up some territory to Russia.



Is there a possibility that Putin will violate the peace agreement? Yes.
Is there a possibility that Putin will actually respect the peace agreement? Yes also.
Is Ukraine defeating Russia militarily and liberating all their territories the desirable outcome? Yes.
Can Ukraine defeat Russia militarily? No.
Will more poor Ukrainians end up dying if Ukraine insists on the battlefield solution (defeat Russia) without any gains? Yes, and dying in vain.

Now the question is, will NATO (including US) send troops to fight on behalf of Ukraine? No, because it is insane for two nuclear powers to be in a direct confrontation.

So what would you do if NATO isn't going to send troops and Ukraine can't win the war? The less evil option is to negotiate a peace agreement to stop the bloodshed immediately.

I don't know if Putin will come back for Ukraine in the future, but they should not let that possibility discourage them from diplomacy because it is also possible that Putin will respect the peace agreement and the relationship between Russia and Ukraine post-peace could be a positive one (think of US-Japan relationship post-war) that would give Putin no reasons to invade. We really don't know what will happen after they sign a peace agreement.

But what I know for sure is that Ukraine cannot win this war against the Russian behemoth without NATO intervention (which I am against) and more Ukrainians will die if they do not negotiate.



I'm not neutral when it comes to the war in Ukraine. I am pro-Ukrainian people, that's why I want Ukrainians to stop dying in this unwinnable war. However, if calling for peace to stop poor Ukrainians from dying makes me pro-Russia, so be it.

And give Russia more time to re-arm. Good plan. And then what? Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted. Ukrainians are not fighting because they want to die, they are fighting because they want to live. And surrendering or negotiating with ANY land concessions is equal to defeat. Russia came once in 2014, stole shit, they weren't punished whatsoever, and here we are in 2022, they came again. All you desire is to let Russia grab land, recover, grab more land until Ukraine is utterly degraded, with no sea access, with no rich resources left...Until it becomes a true shithole which can never recover and prosper, with no hopes of joining EU or NATO.

Great plan. You thinking Russia will honor anything as a cleptocratic nazi terrorist nation...Hah.

[Specialka]

And give Russia more time to re-arm. Good plan. And then what? Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted. Ukrainians are not fighting because they want to die, they are fighting because they want to live. And surrendering or negotiating with ANY land concessions is equal to defeat. Russia came once in 2014, stole shit, they weren't punished whatsoever, and here we are in 2022, they came again. All you desire is to let Russia grab land, recover, grab more land until Ukraine is utterly degraded, with no sea access, with no rich resources left...Until it becomes a true shithole which can never recover and prosper, with no hopes of joining EU or NATO.

Great plan. You thinking Russia will honor anything as a cleptocratic nazi terrorist nation...Hah.

You should try to cool down as it is not what he said in any way or shape.

The war in Ukraine is now a war of trenches and attrition. It never ends well.

[Saradain]

You should try to cool down as it is not what he said in any way or shape.

The war in Ukraine is now a war of trenches and attrition. It never ends well.

I'm entirely cool right here, you got any compelling argument?

Why would a RT-propaganda regurgitating poster ever say negative things about Russia anyway?

Ukraine will negotiate alright, right when Russia is first driven back to their shithole beyond 2014 borders, after which Ukraine will ask Russia how many hundreds of thousands of orcs still wish to die before restoring the borders to 1991 variants. Or so would the grand plan be

After all, Russia was the aggressor, giving up anything for them is not an option especially with NATO armaments coming Ukraine's way all the time. But I can understand why all these russian spambots in various websites are suing for peace and negotiations right now as ATACMS roll in. Which begs the question why the similar posts start appearing in this thread, too...

But hey, if Ukraine cannot win, and it looks like a standstill according to some people, then Ukraine surely can just accept more and more deadlier, longer range armaments and fire them away

[Specialka]

I'm entirely cool right here, you got any compelling argument?

Why would a RT-propaganda regurgitating poster ever say negative things about Russia anyway?

Ukraine will negotiate alright, right when Russia is first driven back to their shithole beyond 2014 borders, after which Ukraine will ask Russia how many hundreds of thousands of orcs still wish to die before restoring the borders to 1991 variants. Or so would the grand plan be

After all, Russia was the aggressor, giving up anything for them is not an option especially with NATO armaments coming Ukraine's way all the time. But I can understand why all these russian spambots in various websites are suing for peace and negotiations right now as ATACMS roll in. Which begs the question why the similar posts start appearing in this thread, too...

But hey, if Ukraine cannot win, and it looks like a standstill according to some people, then Ukraine surely can just accept more and more deadlier, longer range armaments and fire them away

As winter is coming (pun intended), not much will happen in the next month, but the ukrainian counter offensive is a failure, according to ukrainian staff.

Maybe, with long range armement and more support, Ukraine could push back Russia but, as it stands, I doubt it. But that stalemate is already a humiliation for Russia.

[Mekh]

I'm just saying that diplomacy should be given a chance in order to save lives.

No action will ever save more lives than utterly humilitating Russia and getting Putin defenestrated. The prize is worth the price.

[Gabriel]

No action will ever save more lives than utterly humilitating Russia and getting Putin defenestrated. The prize is worth the price.

I can think of something else but it is not publishable.

[Jastall]

Diplomacy is only a good option if you can reasonably trust the other side to stick to whatever deal you make, at least in part even if not in full. Given that Russia has had a history of not caring about sticking to its end of the bargain whenever it suits them and justifying themselves with overblown nationalism and self-referential nonsense like Ukraine literally being a country full of Nazis, I don't see why the Ukrainians should be in any rush to seek terms that will be broken the moment Russia finds an opportunity to do so.

Ukraine is still getting aid and doesn't seem close to any sort of breaking point. This year's offensive largely failed, they'll dust themselves up and ready for the next one. Russian can either continue to turtle and hope next time goes as well for them, or try an offensive of their own which they've largely seem to not really be capable of accomplishing. The war isn't anywhere near decided enough that Ukraine should beg for a pause that'll only allow Russia to re-arm and reorganize, while Ukrainian aid diminishes as it fades from the West's public consciousness and in five to ten years either Putin or whichever shithead succeeds him actually takes over the country this time around.

[Saradain]

As winter is coming (pun intended), not much will happen in the next month, but the ukrainian counter offensive is a failure, according to ukrainian staff.

Maybe, with long range armement and more support, Ukraine could push back Russia but, as it stands, I doubt it. But that stalemate is already a humiliation for Russia.

Then I ask you and TrueNeutral both:

If the war has to end, why doesn't Russia just leave Ukraine then? Including Crimea, of course. Fastest way to end the war. Russia has no right to be in Ukraine, and Russia is bound by the very diplomatic contract they made long ago. So why Ukraine has to capitulate?

[Mekh]

Then I ask you and TrueNeutral both:

If the war has to end, why doesn't Russia just leave Ukraine then? Including Crimea, of course. Fastest way to end the war. Russia has no right to be in Ukraine, and Russia is bound by the very diplomatic contract they made long ago. So why Ukraine has to capitulate?

It's always the same answer: "Putin is not the guy to...". Well, apparently neither is Zelenskyy.

[Iphie]

I don't disagree with that. I do believe that the initial goal of Russia was to conquer the whole of Ukraine, but they failed and Putin has given up on his ambitions to conquer the whole of Ukraine, he just wants the Russian-speaking parts now.. you know, where the people living in those parts are sympathetic towards Russia anyway.

You should ask what the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine thinks of russia these days...

I'm not neutral when it comes to the war in Ukraine. I am pro-Ukrainian people, that's why I want Ukrainians to stop dying in this unwinnable war. However, if calling for peace to stop poor Ukrainians from dying makes me pro-Russia, so be it.

Why do you lie? You're not pro-Ukraine in any way, shape or form. So spare us your indignation.

[Saradain]

You should ask what the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine thinks of russia these days...



Why do you lie? You're not pro-Ukraine in any way, shape or form. So spare us your indignation.

The russian cohort failed to recall Russia would still very much go for killing every last ukrainian to form the Soviet Union again. Only that Russia couldn't clearly do it after first 3 days. He pretends Russia is "only wanting russian speaking parts" as gesture of goodwill

It's not hard to make an area russian speaking when you forcibly relocate people across decades to your poorest regions with your empire. Only to whine and claim Ukraine as your own after successful relocation of inhabitants from actual Russia.

[Specialka]

Then I ask you and TrueNeutral both:

If the war has to end, why doesn't Russia just leave Ukraine then? Including Crimea, of course. Fastest way to end the war. Russia has no right to be in Ukraine, and Russia is bound by the very diplomatic contract they made long ago. So why Ukraine has to capitulate?

Who says they have to capitulate ?

[Saradain]

Who says they have to capitulate ?

The cohort you claimed I am mistaken about? Or what did you think negotiations with Russia mean when you have to give up even more land when its Russia invading, not Ukraine that needs to be punished?

Are you gonna answer the question though? Why doesn't Russia just leave all Ukrainian territory?

[Specialka]

The cohort you claimed I am mistaken about? Or what did you think negotiations with Russia mean when you have to give up even more land when its Russia invading, not Ukraine that needs to be punished?

Are you gonna answer the question though? Why doesn't Russia just leave all Ukrainian territory?

Because they do not want ? I mean they should leave but reality does not work that way.