Russian invasion of Ukraine

[TrueNeutral]

And give Russia more time to re-arm. Good plan. And then what? Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted. Ukrainians are not fighting because they want to die, they are fighting because they want to live. And surrendering or negotiating with ANY land concessions is equal to defeat. Russia came once in 2014, stole shit, they weren't punished whatsoever, and here we are in 2022, they came again. All you desire is to let Russia grab land, recover, grab more land until Ukraine is utterly degraded, with no sea access, with no rich resources left...Until it becomes a true shithole which can never recover and prosper, with no hopes of joining EU or NATO.

Great plan. You thinking Russia will honor anything as a cleptocratic nazi terrorist nation...Hah.

As I said earlier, I do not know what will happen after both countries come to a negotiated settlement, everything you just said is just pure speculation. What I can say is it's important (after the war is over) for Ukraine and Russia to re-establish full diplomatic relationship and get along well, and Ukraine doesn't antagonize Russia with their desire to join NATO (not allowing Ukraine to join NATO will probably be part of the peace deal anyway). Russia seized Crimea and started the Donbass war because they felt threatened by Ukraine's desire to get closer to the west after they overthrew their elected pro-Russian president at Russia's expense. We can argue about how it is Ukraine's sovereign right to join NATO and choose who to be friends/enemies with, but from a pragmatic standpoint, it is important for Ukraine to get along with Russia as its neighbour. Failed diplomacy is the reason why the war started in the first place.

What I'm saying may sound like "might is right", but it is what it is. Ukraine just can't alienate Russia and not expect a response from Russia.
And let me say that there is absolutely no justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, even though their reasons for invading Ukraine is probably more sound than America's invasion of Iraq under the pretext of Iraq possessing nuclear weapon, and then getting away with ruining millions of Iraqi lives (because might is right), but as I said earlier, Ukraine has to be pragmatic and recognize that Russia is their neighbour and they have to get along for peace.

[Saradain]

As I said earlier, I do not know what will happen after both countries come to a negotiated settlement, everything you just said is just pure speculation. What I can say is it's important (after the war is over) for Ukraine and Russia to re-establish full diplomatic relationship and get along well, and Ukraine doesn't antagonize Russia with their desire to join NATO (not allowing Ukraine to join NATO will probably be part of the peace deal anyway). Russia seized Crimea and started the Donbass war because they felt threatened by Ukraine's desire to get closer to the west after they overthrew their elected pro-Russian president at Russia's expense. We can argue about how it is Ukraine's sovereign right to join NATO and choose who to be friends/enemies with, but from a pragmatic standpoint, it is important for Ukraine to get along with Russia as its neighbour. Failed diplomacy is the reason why the war started in the first place.

What I'm saying may sound like "might is right", but it is what it is. Ukraine just can't alienate Russia and not expect a response from Russia.
And let me say that there is absolutely no justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, even though their reasons for invading Ukraine is probably more sound than America's invasion of Iraq under the pretext of Iraq possessing nuclear weapon, and then getting away with ruining millions of Iraqi lives (because might is right), but as I said earlier, Ukraine has to be pragmatic and recognize that Russia is their neighbour and they have to get along for peace.

Year 2014 and Crimean invasion was speculation? Spoken like a true propagandamonger. Ukraine is entirely free to join NATO as they wish, Russia has no say in it. Russia sure didn't invade Finland when we joined NATO recently, but for some reason, genocide of Ukraine was the reasonable reaction? In fact, Russia more like emptied the border of Finland and Russia even they are oh-so-scared of NATO...

Also nice whataboutism

Yeah, you two sure are something. Guess this thread eventually needed more posters like you.

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Because they do not want ? I mean they should leave but reality does not work that way.

So Ukraine shouldn't stop fighting back either, gotcha. Because they do not want to be genocided. Reality doesn't work the way you "peacemongers-in-favor-of-Russia" want. You don't invade until you get what you want, you deserve to be beaten to a pulp if you do invade.

[TrueNeutral]

Year 2014 and Crimean invasion was speculation? Spoken like a true propagandamonger. Ukraine is entirely free to join NATO as they wish, Russia has no say in it. Russia sure didn't invade Finland when we joined NATO recently, but for some reason, genocide of Ukraine was the reasonable reaction? Also nice whataboutism

Yeah, you two sure are something. Guess this thread eventually needed more posters like you.

You said "Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted." in response to my call for peace negotiations. That is pure speculation. You and I don't know what will happen after the war ends.

Russia didn't invade Finland, because it is preoccupied with Ukraine. Why did Finland not join NATO during the cold war? Because USSR sure as hell would have invaded it, but Finland and USSR were at peace for decades because Finland remained neutral as it was the smart thing to do not to poke the bear.

[Saradain]

You said "Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted." in response to my call for peace negotiations. That is pure speculation. You and I don't know what will happen after the war ends.

Russia didn't invade Finland, because it is preoccupied with Ukraine. Why did Finland not join NATO during the cold war? Because USSR sure as hell would have invaded it, but Finland and USSR were at peace for decades because Finland remained neutral, because it was the smart thing to do not to poke the bear.

You still pretend 2014 didn't happen. Russia invaded Crimea, took it, and Ukraine was left to stew with no active military operations towards Crimea. Now, 8 years later, Russia invaded the remaining un-occupied Ukraine. So wrong again

One does not simply let Russia to have peace during an active war, or they get fucked once again. But thanks anyway for your discussion, I'm tired of talking about RT talking points. If you wish to live in a dreamland where Ukraine somehow is left alone (because NATO, USA etc clearly want to spend all the money and supplies for nothing, sarcasm btw), go for it.

[TrueNeutral]

You still pretend 2014 didn't happen. Russia invaded Crimea, took it, and Ukraine was left to stew with no active military operations towards Crimea. Now, 8 years later, Russia invaded the remaining un-occupied Ukraine. So wrong again

Russia seized Crimea and started the Donbass war because they felt threatened by Ukraine's desire to get closer to the west after they overthrew their elected pro-Russian president at Russia's expense.

One does not simply let Russia to have peace during an active war, or they get fucked once again. But thanks anyway for your discussion, I'm tired of talking about RT talking points. If you wish to live in a dreamland where Ukraine somehow is left alone (because NATO, USA etc clearly want to spend all the money and supplies for nothing, sarcasm btw), go for it.

I don't watch RT or any pro-Russian propaganda channel. Nonetheless, I appreciate the discussion we had, and I respect your POV.

[Jastall]

You said "Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted." in response to my call for peace negotiations. That is pure speculation. You and I don't know what will happen after the war ends.

Russia didn't invade Finland, because it is preoccupied with Ukraine. Why did Finland not join NATO during the cold war? Because USSR sure as hell would have invaded it, but Finland and USSR were at peace for decades because Finland remained neutral as it was the smart thing to do not to poke the bear.

What makes you believe they wouldn't? Russia has made it clear that expanding their sphere of influence is a primary geopolitical goal, and Ukraine lies squarely in their path due to Crimea and being a border state to the rest of Eastern Europe. As well, it is rich in natural resources of various flavors and a competitor to Russia in the matter. In less than 10 years Russia has seized Ukrainian territory twice, choosing a more modest portion in 2014 and trying to grab the whole cake this time around. Russian propaganda, even disregarding the "lol ukrainian nazis" memes made for internal consumption and to fool tankies, has made it clear it doesn't recognize Ukrainians as an independent nation at best and thinks its very existence is a mistake at worst. This isn't just Putin's saying, it's a fairly common opinion across its political class.

With this in mind, exactly what signals the Ukrainians that if they lay down their arms and accept that a portion of their territory is no longer theirs for the second time, there is not going to be a third time? To say nothing of the fact that while the invasion dates from 2022, the actual conflict started all the way back in 2014 when Russian proxies were attempting to separate from Ukraine. The definition of insanity is trying once again to appease Russia and thinking that this time they won't come back for realsies.

"Provocations" don't matter. That's not the difference between them and Finland. The difference is that Finland is 1. super hard to invade and 2. doesn't come with a vital strategic asset (Sevastopol) and a treasure trove of mineral and agricultural resources, making it a way better target.

[Flarelaine]

You said "Russia comes again, murders, rapes, pillages more ukrainians and your original goal of saving ukrainians is already deleted." in response to my call for peace negotiations. That is pure speculation. You and I don't know what will happen after the war ends.

We know Russia has previously signed five different treaties where they guarantee or at least recognise Ukraine's borders as they were upon independence. Those did not stop them from invading. What would make a sixth one different?

[DarkTZeratul]

Zelensky wanted to negotiate with Russia when the war started, but he didn't accept Russia's term. Then when Ukraine actually started pushing the Russians back and recaptured some land, Comedian Zelensky's arrogant ass decided to abandon diplomacy because he thought he was winning the war (lol).
Diplomacy > War.

Would you be inclined to negotiate with an armed robber who breaks into your house and starts stealing your stuff, and then when you pull a gun he tells you "okay, how about this, I'll only steal some of your stuff and I'll pinky promise that I won't come back and steal the rest of it next week."

[TrueNeutral]

As I mentioned before, I hope Ukraine doesn't have to give up land, and I agree that is the morally right thing to do.
But war is not a matter of right or wrong, being practical takes precedence.

The reality is, Ukraine will never push Russia out of Ukraine without NATO intervention, and this means poor Ukrainians will continue to die in vain until they're out of manpower. All the equipment given to Ukraine will be useless without manpower.

Should the West continue to fund and prolong this proxy war with almost no gains, to the last Ukrainian blood? Or should they encourage Ukraine to seek peace? Even if there's a chance that Russia will be back later given their history, it's better to take that chance for peace than the status quo of just losing lives everyday with no end. The war has to end sooner or later, even if they have to give up land (which I think they will).

It's a horrible war, Ukraine is the victim here, but they will run out of men before Russia does, even if they suffer fewer casualties than Russia. Western support will eventually fade, and Ukraine will ultimately end up with no choice but to make concessions.

If Ukraine insists on fighting, even without Western support, then it's on them. But warmongers like Ben Hodges should not deceive Ukraine into thinking that they can win this war. Stop encouraging war, and promote peace. It's up to Ukraine to continue fighting, but it's up to the West (and warmongers on the media like Ben Hodges) to encourage negotiation.

[Edge-]

The reality is, Ukraine will never push Russia out of Ukraine without NATO intervention, and this means poor Ukrainians will continue to die in vain until they're out of manpower. All the equipment given to Ukraine will be useless without manpower.

I don't think people dying defending their homeland from invaders, and doing a pretty great job of it, are "dying in vain".

Should the West continue to fund and prolong this proxy war with almost no gains, to the last Ukrainian blood?

No gains? What's the current state of the Russian military? The Russian economy? Russian population demographics?

Are Ukrainians being forced to defend their homeland for western nations holding guns to their heads or something? I thought they were defending it regardless of western support because that's what people usually do when their nation is invaded by hostile outside actors.

And yes, they should fund Ukraine for as long as the war continues and Ukraine needs assitance.

Or should they encourage Ukraine to seek peace?

They can encourage that all they want, Ukraine can tell them to pound rocks.

Even if there's a chance that Russia will be back later given their history, it's better to take that chance for peace than the status quo of just losing lives everyday with no end. The war has to end sooner or later, even if they have to give up land (which I think they will).

I'll take my cues on this topic from the Ukrainian people who are actually involved in this whole thing, not pearl clutching folks who seem totally uninvolved.

But warmongers like Ben Hodges should not deceive Ukraine into thinking that they can win this war.

I don't think Ukrainian officials are exclusively looking to Ben Hodges for analysis and strategic advice. I don't even know if they give a shit what he has to say at all, even. Do you?

Stop encouraging war, and promote peace. It's up to Ukraine to continue fighting, but it's up to the West (and warmongers on the media like Ben Hodges) to encourage negotiation.

Peace will be achieved when Russia returns its military to its homeland and leaves the occupied regions including Crimea. Literally, it's 100% on Russia to stop the fighting here, not Ukraine who are just defending themselves.

This is an astoundingly bad take. Truly impressive in how awful it appears to be.

[TrueNeutral]

I don't think people dying defending their homeland from invaders, and doing a pretty great job of it, are "dying in vain".



No gains? What's the current state of the Russian military? The Russian economy? Russian population demographics?

Are Ukrainians being forced to defend their homeland for western nations holding guns to their heads or something? I thought they were defending it regardless of western support because that's what people usually do when their nation is invaded by hostile outside actors.

And yes, they should fund Ukraine for as long as the war continues and Ukraine needs assitance.



They can encourage that all they want, Ukraine can tell them to pound rocks.



I'll take my cues on this topic from the Ukrainian people who are actually involved in this whole thing, not pearl clutching folks who seem totally uninvolved.



I don't think Ukrainian officials are exclusively looking to Ben Hodges for analysis and strategic advice. I don't even know if they give a shit what he has to say at all, even. Do you?



Peace will be achieved when Russia returns its military to its homeland and leaves the occupied regions including Crimea. Literally, it's 100% on Russia to stop the fighting here, not Ukraine who are just defending themselves.

This is an astoundingly bad take. Truly impressive in how awful it appears to be.

Ukraine will not defeat Russia militarily despite claims of Russia running out of equipment and manpower. Russia will outlast Ukraine and its war sponsors because support for Ukraine will eventually waver as citizens of these countries are increasingly tired of funding the proxy war.

Let's be realistic, Russia wouldn't leave the occupied regions or stop the fighting unless Putin had some wins from his "special military operation". He needs a face-saving path to end this war, and not having any concessions from Ukraine isn't one of them. It's not 100% on Russia to end this war, it's on both Russia and Ukraine as both are warring parties. Zelensky just wants to win this war at all cost when he's not fighting and dying in the battlefield. Negotiating a peace deal is not surrendering as Ukraine gets to keep its independence.

[Gabriel]

Ukraine will not defeat Russia militarily despite claims of Russia running out of equipment and manpower. Russia will outlast Ukraine and its war sponsors because support for Ukraine will eventually waver as citizens of these countries are increasingly tired of funding the proxy war.

Let's be realistic, Russia wouldn't leave the occupied regions or stop the fighting unless Putin had some wins from his "special military operation". He needs a face-saving path to end this war, and not having any concessions from Ukraine isn't one of them. It's not 100% on Russia to end this war, it's on both Russia and Ukraine as both are warring parties. Zelensky just wants to win this war at all cost when he's not fighting and dying in the battlefield. Negotiating a peace deal is not surrendering as Ukraine gets to keep its independence.

It is 100% on Russia to end this war, unless we decide to give Ukraine nukes or something of that extent.

[Edge-]

Ukraine will not defeat Russia militarily despite claims of Russia running out of equipment and manpower. Russia will outlast Ukraine and its war sponsors because support for Ukraine will eventually waver as citizens of these countries are increasingly tired of funding the proxy war.

It's quite possible. And Ukraine will come to that bridge when it happens. I don't think anyone is expecting a total victory over the Russian military though. I'm unsure what the latest reasonable expectations might be, but I doubt "total defeat of the Russian military" has ever been a part of that discussion.

Let's be realistic, Russia wouldn't leave the occupied regions or stop the fighting unless Putin had some wins from his "special military operation". He needs a face-saving path to end this war, and not having any concessions from Ukraine isn't one of them. It's not 100% on Russia to end this war, it's on both Russia and Ukraine as both are warring parties. Zelensky just wants to win this war at all cost when he's not fighting and dying in the battlefield. Negotiating a peace deal is not surrendering as Ukraine gets to keep its independence.

It is 100% on Russia to end this war, they literally started it by anexxing territory and getting away with it and then invading a second time to take more territory thinking they could get away with that, too. They rolled their dice and hit a nat-1, unfortunately for them.

If they withdraw from Ukrainian territory, especially including the annexed territory like Crimea, the war ends. Obviously that won't happen because Putin cannot stand to be humiliated like that, but it's 100% on them to end the war. Thinking that it's on Ukraine to end the war is like thinking that it was on France to make peace with Germany after they were invaded in WWII rofl.

As to the last bit, have you polled the actual soldiers to see if they think the president being the executive of the country during wartime and not going to the front is actually as bad as you hint at? Because I'm pretty sure they'd recognize the importance of leadership in the fight, including leadership that's proven effective in helping rally ongoing supplies and assistance, but that's just me.

Your takes continues to be pretty bad, and also very confusing.

[Gorsameth]

Yes it is 100% on Russia. This war ends tonight if Russia announces a full withdraw from all pre-2014 Ukrainian territories.

Also lol at the notion that Zelensky is not risking his life. We have reports that Russia has tried and he has been to the front on multiple occasions. The fact he isn't standing on the steps with a machinegun doesn't make him some sort of coward hiding behind his position.

[DarkTZeratul]

Yes it is 100% on Russia. This war ends tonight if Russia announces a full withdraw from all pre-2014 Ukrainian territories.

Hell, realistically, the war probably ends tonight (or at least tomorrow) if Russia announces a full withdraw from all pre-2022 Ukrainian territories.

They won't even do that, though. Russia's condition is that they'll leave Ukraine if Ukraine promises not to join any military alliances that could prevent Russia from invading again, and surely even TrueNeutral can see why that's a non-starter.

[Kaleredar]

Peace will be achieved when Russia returns its military to its homeland and leaves the occupied regions including Crimea. Literally, it's 100% on Russia to stop the fighting here, not Ukraine who are just defending themselves.

This is an astoundingly bad take. Truly impressive in how awful it appears to be.

I would add on “and Ukraine enters into an alliance with some powerful friends.”

As others have noted Russia’s word isn’t worth dirt. Any temporary “peace,” even with land ceded back to Ukraine, honestly just gives Russia time to recuperate and prepare for another invasion, unless the threat of overwhelming force being brought to meet their aggression is presented.

[Corvus]

Lets not forget russia, among the very many other treaties it has broken, signed one with Chenchnya after getting wrecked. They then proceeded to rearm and invade again, murdering every single member of the Chechnyan side who had been part of the treaty signing.

Just a small portion of the treaties russia has signed and then broken;

UN Charter 45
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty 70
Helsinki Accords 75
Belovezha Accords 91–92
Budapest Memo 94
Black Sea Fleet Treaty 97
Friendship Treaty 98
Treaty on Azov Sea & Kerch Strait ‘03
Karkiv pact ‘10
Paris Charter 90
Moldova-Russia treaty 94
OSCE Istanbul Document 99
Ukraine-Russia border treaty '03
Georgia-Russia agreement '08

And the 'wavering' western support in the last day or so has announced;
France pledging another $200 million in funding.
Germany pledging 100,000 120mm mortar rounds.
UK placing new sanctions on russian gold and oil.
Dutch sending 3 F16s to Romania for Ukrainian pilots to train on.
G7 pledging unwavering support and saying that all russia assets that are frozen will remain frozen until russia pays reparations.
Swedens defence minister says they are able to send Grippens to Ukraine, the decision to be mae once they are a member of NATO.
The EU is pushing ahead with allowing Ukraine and Moldava to join.
The EU says that Hungary will not be able to block providing Ukraine with $50 billion in funding over the next 4 years.

Oh, and russia is demanding that other countries return weapons that they sold them. Yeah, no backsies.

[Poopymonster]

Russia's publicly stated goal is to erase the Ukrainian identity. Your suggesting to negotiate with someone who wants to erase you from existence.

How about we only kill half the ̶J̶e̶w̶s̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶B̶l̶a̶c̶k̶s̶,̶ ̶ I mean Ukrainians, that's a fair middle ground isn't it?
/S

[Elder Millennial]

Zelensky wanted to negotiate with Russia when the war started, but he didn't accept Russia's term. Then when Ukraine actually started pushing the Russians back and recaptured some land, Comedian Zelensky's arrogant ass decided to abandon diplomacy because he thought he was winning the war (lol).
Diplomacy > War.

Zelensky and Ukrainians in general souring on the whole "diplomacy with Russia" bit had less to do with Western support and more with the discovery of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre and other similar "incidents" as they started pushing back the Russians.

What the Ukrainians realized wasn't that they "could" win, but that they "had to" win.

[Dontrike]

Beating Russia decisively? That's even less likely. Putin isn't the type of person who simply accepts defeat. You defeat him, he'll be back. That's why a long-lasting peace agreement is needed.

You can't have a "peace agreement" with someone that wants your entire country dead. That shit is fucking stupid.