Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Dontrike]

Pretty sure Putin didn't like this activity (by NBC News).

[video=youtube;CpV16BQfbrQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpV16BQfbrQ&ab_channel=NBCNews[/vieo]
"Let Moscow lay in ruins, we don't give a damn! Death, death to the Muscovites!" (0:05)

"Ukraine was making sure kids knew Russia wanted to kill them and therefore prepared them to fight if need be," isn't the argument you think it is. It's clear Russia wanted those kids dead, what with likely most of those kids being dead thanks to Putin and Russia attacking for no reason.

[DarkTZeratul]

That brings us to negotiation. It is a matter of time before Ukraine recognizes the harsh reality where both sides will have to negotiate in good faith so that Russia doesn't invade again. The world is getting tired of this war, and poorer countries are suffering because warring parties from both sides (and their war sponsors) refuse to talk, but it will happen.

I know I'm going to hear the same "Russia can choose to leave, and the war will end", but they aren't. The war cannot end where the winner wins all and the loser loses all, that's just the reality. Compromise is not surrender. Surrender is when Ukraine gives up its independence.

And yet the suggestion you have repeatedly given essentially amounts to telling Ukraine to give up a portion of its territory to Russia, and give up its ability to seek allies outside of Russia to prevent Russia from invading them A FOURTH TIME, and for Russia to give up... Absolutely fucking nothing. What, exactly, prevents Russia from invading Ukraine YET AGAIN the next time they come up with a flimsy pretext for why another sovereign nation that Russia has absolutely no goddamn say in should actually be conquered by Russia?

This is about as logical as telling a victim of domestic abuse that she should stop provoking her husband and he'll stop beating her, when what she really wants to do is divorce his abusive ass.

[Corvus]

Shockingly, I've yet to see him say russia needs to surrender the far east to China, despite it being filled with Chinese speakers (who are actually Chinese and not merely speakers) and it being historical Chinese lands. China has far more claim to it than Rrussia does to Ukraine.

And yes, China still has not forgotten about it.

[Kallisto]

Shockingly, I've yet to see him say russia needs to surrender the far east to China, despite it being filled with Chinese speakers (who are actually Chinese and not merely speakers) and it being historical Chinese lands. China has far more claim to it than Rrussia does to Ukraine.

And yes, China still has not forgotten about it.

Hasn't China already had some map adjustments with Russia where they basically went "Oh that Island we agreed to share with Russia, that's ours now." and Russia basically went "Yes sir"

[Kaleredar]

Hasn't China already had some map adjustments with Russia where they basically went "Oh that Island we agreed to share with Russia, that's ours now." and Russia basically went "Yes sir"

China is Russia's only "friend" (and I use that term very loosely) left in the world outside of petty vassal states and impotent dictatorships. They very literally can't afford to piss China off.

Which is playing right into China's hands.

[TrueNeutral]

And yet the suggestion you have repeatedly given essentially amounts to telling Ukraine to give up a portion of its territory to Russia, and give up its ability to seek allies outside of Russia to prevent Russia from invading them A FOURTH TIME, and for Russia to give up... Absolutely fucking nothing. What, exactly, prevents Russia from invading Ukraine YET AGAIN the next time they come up with a flimsy pretext for why another sovereign nation that Russia has absolutely no goddamn say in should actually be conquered by Russia?

This is about as logical as telling a victim of domestic abuse that she should stop provoking her husband and he'll stop beating her, when what she really wants to do is divorce his abusive ass.

I keep hearing about how nothing prevents Russia from invading again. Russia has always picked on the weak and helpless (Georgia, Chechnya). They thought Ukraine was going to be a cakewalk but they were wrong. The full scale invasion of Ukraine has resulted in a militarized Ukraine, even Prigozhin admitted that. I don't think Russia would have invaded Finland if had they joined NATO before the invasion of Ukraine anyway, given that Finland is a force to be reckoned with.

After the war ends, a heavily militarized but non-NATO Ukraine will be very much West-aligned anyway. Russia has already indicated that Ukraine can join the EU, just not NATO, as it is clearly their red line. Allowing Ukraine to join the cool kids club (the EU) at Russia's expense is what Russia has to give up.

I can't definitively say whether Russia will or will not invade again after the war ends, but I can say that if Ukraine maintains a friendly relationship with Russia while also maintaining a strong defensive military (and staying out of NATO), I think that Putin will be less inclined to invade again. Putin knows that there will be a stronger response from the West (and probably even China) if he invades Ukraine again.

Russia must accept a militarized Ukraine in the EU (which I see a loss to Russia), and Ukraine must acknowledge that Crimea is gone, given the reality that the people of Crimea do not want to be part of Ukraine. They must officially remain neutral.

I also hope that Russia will return the territories that they annexed last year, but Luhansk and Donetsk should be granted autonomy status, ensuring the protection Russian minority rights.

There's always room for compromise; it's just a matter of whether both sides are ready to talk or not.

[Dontrike]

There's always room for compromise; it's just a matter of whether both sides are ready to talk or not.

And Russia isn't willing to talk, what don't you get? But hell, let's go with this "logic" of yours. What should Russia get out of this "compromise?" Why should they get anything out of a discussion when they were the one who started this, killed tens of thousands, kidnapped thousands of children, and so much more? Why should Ukraine go "sure, take more of our people and stuff"?

Use that infinite wisdom you have and explain. Go on, be smart for the first time.

[Iphie]

I can't definitively say whether Russia will or will not invade again after the war ends, but I can say that if Ukraine maintains a friendly relationship with Russia while also maintaining a strong defensive military (and staying out of NATO), I think that Putin will be less inclined to invade again. Putin knows that there will be a stronger response from the West (and probably even China) if he invades Ukraine again.

You're delusional if really think this. Ukraine will NOT have a friendly relationship with russia for a very long time. Not even if putin is gone.

[Kaleredar]

I keep hearing about how nothing prevents Russia from invading again. Russia has always picked on the weak and helpless (Georgia, Chechnya). They thought Ukraine was going to be a cakewalk but they were wrong. The full scale invasion of Ukraine has resulted in a militarized Ukraine, even Prigozhin admitted that. I don't think Russia would have invaded Finland if had they joined NATO before the invasion of Ukraine anyway, given that Finland is a force to be reckoned with.

After the war ends, a heavily militarized but non-NATO Ukraine will be very much West-aligned anyway. Russia has already indicated that Ukraine can join the EU, just not NATO, as it is clearly their red line. Allowing Ukraine to join the cool kids club (the EU) at Russia's expense is what Russia has to give up.

I can't definitively say whether Russia will or will not invade again after the war ends, but I can say that if Ukraine maintains a friendly relationship with Russia while also maintaining a strong defensive military (and staying out of NATO), I think that Putin will be less inclined to invade again. Putin knows that there will be a stronger response from the West (and probably even China) if he invades Ukraine again.

Russia must accept a militarized Ukraine in the EU (which I see a loss to Russia), and Ukraine must acknowledge that Crimea is gone, given the reality that the people of Crimea do not want to be part of Ukraine. They must officially remain neutral.

I also hope that Russia will return the territories that they annexed last year, but Luhansk and Donetsk should be granted autonomy status, ensuring the protection Russian minority rights.

There's always room for compromise; it's just a matter of whether both sides are ready to talk or not.

Giving Russia pause only allows them time to rebuild their armed forces. Right now they're constantly fighting on the backfoot, unable to stabilize their production lines, root out the systemic corruption plaguing their system, and unable to modernize their arsenal or negotiate with any assurances with other foreign powers to form alliances. This is the best situation for Ukraine to be in and the worst for Russia.

Nor does Russia have any say in who Ukraine allies with or doesn't. "Ukraine joining NATO is their red line." Who gives a fuck what Russia thinks? NATO only exists as an assurance against the dictatorial expansion of places like Russia.

To put it simply, NATO is the electric fence that keeps the Russian rabid dog fenced in. I'm sure the rabid dog thinks it's unfair that the electric fence exists, but why should we care what the rabid dog thinks? The fence isn't harmful unless you go ramming into it. The rabid dog, on the other hand, seeks to do harm.

And once again you talk of "compromise." Continuing our little metaphor you say "Don't bite me" and the rabid dog says "maybe I get to bite you, just a little." And you would call doing what the dog wants "compromise." But you don't compromise with a rabid dog, just like how you don't compromise with Russia here.

[Forogil]

And remember that Russian "red lines" in Ukraine have gone such out of hands that there's an actual Wikipedia page listing them, which ones have been broken, and the actual consequences if any (and in half of the cases where consequences are listed they are nothing more than "harsh words"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_li...-Ukrainian_War

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You’re the guy back in WW2 telling Poland and France to surrender and the US and Britain “not to keep provoking Germany.“
We’re the guys saying “damn, we should’ve helped them fight back waaaaay sooner” and are making good on that realization as we see it trying to repeat itself.

And a few years before WWII the idea of appeasment was even tried, allowing Germany to take Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in 1938 thinking it would stop further expansion (when Germany had already annexed the more willing Austria).

Luckily some people learned from history: to stop the megalomaniac dictator in his tracks you act fast and decisive, instead of speaking appeasement like you.

Wish that were more true.

But the world was fairly quiet after Russia took full control over parts of Georgia in 2008, and when Russia took Crimea and others part of Ukraine in 2014 - still reaping the peace-dividend and trying to build friendly relationship with Russia with things like NorthStream 2. It wasn't until 2022 that the world finally woke up.

[Edge-]

And remember that Russian "red lines" in Ukraine have gone such out of hands that there's an actual Wikipedia page listing them, which ones have been broken, and the actual consequences if any (and in half of the cases where consequences are listed they are nothing more than "harsh words"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_li...-Ukrainian_War

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And a few years before WWII the idea of appeasment was even tried, allowing Germany to take Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in 1938 thinking it would stop further expansion (when Germany had already annexed the more willing Austria).


Wish that were more true.

But the world was fairly quiet after Russia took full control over parts of Georgia in 2008, and when Russia took Crimea and others part of Ukraine in 2014 - still reaping the peace-dividend and trying to build friendly relationship with Russia with things like NorthStream 2. It wasn't until 2022 that the world finally woke up.

I like how most of the consequences from the Russian side - short of the invasion - is largely just complaining about the red lines being violated, if acknowledged at all. Meanwhile western ones have resulted in sanctions and some naval minesweeping. You know, rhetoric vs. the ability to really do anything.

[Voidism]

And remember that Russian "red lines" in Ukraine have gone such out of hands that there's an actual Wikipedia page listing them, which ones have been broken, and the actual consequences if any (and in half of the cases where consequences are listed they are nothing more than "harsh words"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_li...-Ukrainian_War

Oh wow, that was pretty funny reading.

"Not ONE STEP FURTHER!"

*steps kinda over without putting down the foot and then gets pushed over the red line*

"Eh... uh... >.>"

[Cynical Asshole]

Oh wow, that was pretty funny reading.

"Not ONE STEP FURTHER!"

*steps kinda over without putting down the foot and then gets pushed over the red line*

"Eh... uh... >.>"

[Flarelaine]

Ukraine news have been overshadowed by Gaza, but apparently that does not mean there is nothing going on.

Blog post but the source was often ahead of "big" news sites who wait for triple confirmation.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ibious-landing

[Iphie]

Ukraine news have been overshadowed by Gaza, but apparently that does not mean there is nothing going on.

Blog post but the source was often ahead of "big" news sites who wait for triple confirmation.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ibious-landing

They've been at this for weeks now, but (paraphrasing): "Raids happen all the time and this is not important", according to some posters here. Meanwhile Ukraine has steadily created a bridgehead, is transporting armored vehicles and generally doing well in that direction, to the point that russian statemedia reported that russian forces would withdraw from Kherson. (report withdrawn as "erroneous" but you know, "errors")

[Ulmita]

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/its...d0b8de?mod=mhp

Hmmm, what happened?

[Gorsameth]

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/its...d0b8de?mod=mhp

Hmmm, what happened?

a bad opinion piece as per usual?
The notion that Russia is not losing as the 2nd anniversary of the 3 day operation approaches sure is a novel concept.

Has it stalemated for now? Sure. Did the Ukraine offensive accomplish less then hoped? Sure
But Russia is still burning through material faster then they can produce it, The Western military industrial complex is still behind Ukraine and Ukraine appears to have successfully established a beachhead across the Dnipro.

The thing about stalemates is that they last, right up until they don't. And then things can collapse rather quickly.

[Mekh]

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/its...d0b8de?mod=mhp

Hmmm, what happened?

Good question. Do you have a WSJ subscription and can tell the class what's in there or did you just come by to drop an article with an attention grabbing headlike like a dishonest little rat?

[Ulmita]

The thing about stalemates is that they last, right up until they don't. And then things can collapse rather quickly.

Agree 100%

[Gabriel]

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/its...d0b8de?mod=mhp

Hmmm, what happened?

Could ask you the same about those S-400 missile systems.

Ohh hey, what happened with the S-400 systems that you said would form an impenetrable forcefield around Russian bases?