Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Karreck]

MMO-Champ may not be a particularly good target objectively, but its got a lot of readers and isn't particularly focused on shutting down Russian disinfo.

Let's be honest, this site isn't really focused on shutting down any disinformation, let alone Russian disinformation. Community posters do their best to push against it, but there really isn't a focus on shutting it down from the upper echelons of this site.

[Kallisto]

Let's be honest, this site isn't really focused on shutting down any disinformation, let alone Russian disinformation. Community posters do their best to push against it, but there really isn't a focus on shutting it down from the upper echelons of this site.

Is there much difference though? If we follow the disinformation I'd be certain that once you follow the money it's all originating from Moscow or St Petersburg.

[Voidism]

Yet more lies being pushed, but there’s one thing that this post is quite illuminating about all the same.

That Ulf Kristersson would have said that is a mistranslation currently circulating in various arabic medias widely, but that we have a Russian vatnik here pushing that exact same bullshit out of his playbook concurrently is quite telling on from just what corner they got it out of.

Indeed. I don't particularly like Ulf Kristersson but it's a literal lie that he said anything close to genocide.

But vatniks using that is very enlightening. It's a good sign that the person is bullshitting. That they are more concerned with spreading filth everywhere.

[Kaleredar]

Let's be honest, this site isn't really focused on shutting down any disinformation, let alone Russian disinformation. Community posters do their best to push against it, but there really isn't a focus on shutting it down from the upper echelons of this site.

Speaking of banning disinformation, I'd like to know if the OP of this thread is finally permabanned so I can take them off ignore and see this thread more easily. We finally got rid of the likes of shalcker some months ago.

[Kallisto]

Speaking of banning disinformation, I'd like to know if the OP of this thread is finally permabanned so I can take them off ignore and see this thread more easily. We finally got rid of the likes of shalcker some months ago.

They're not even banned right now.

[zealo]

Speaking of banning disinformation, I'd like to know if the OP of this thread is finally permabanned so I can take them off ignore and see this thread more easily. We finally got rid of the likes of shalcker some months ago.

No, Yupster isn't banned. In fact, he hasn't made any post on here since late October by now, so his latest ban probably expired fairly recently and we're due another bunch of nonsense from him soon.

[Kaleredar]

They're not even banned right now.

Darn, they were when I checked a while back.

[Ulmita]

Allegedly Germany & US want Ukraine to negotiate with Russia(??)

https://kyivindependent.com/bild-us-...-to-negotiate/

[Iphie]

Allegedly Germany & US want Ukraine to negotiate with Russia(??)

https://kyivindependent.com/bild-us-...-to-negotiate/

It's of course Ukraine's choice, but I don't think anyone opposes seeking an end to the fighting. (and of course no one should trust russia so any negotiations should be conducted with great care.)

For now though, if Ukraine wants to fight, give them everything they need and then some.

[Corvus]

It's Bild quoting 'unnamed sources.'

[TrueNeutral]

Oh but you are. You saying "Russia is somewhat justified" is no different from you saying "Ukraine deserved to be invaded because they disrespected Russia's fee-fees."

You might as well be saying "It's wrong for a man to beat his wife, but to be fair she was late getting dinner ready."



This is where your sentence should have ended



But Ukraine's shouldn't?

Why the fuck do you think Ukraine wanted to join NATO/the EU?

Because of their security concerns about Russia.

And boy howdy did Ukraine's security concerns come true!

Number of times NATO has invaded Russia over the course of its entire existence: zero

Number of times Russia has invaded neighboring countries just in the past year: more than zero



Yeah but see

China isn't doing that. Neither is Mexico. Your justification for Russia's actions are imaginary scenarios.



And of course you're burying the lede anyway. Whether intentionally or through your own ignorance, I don't know, but let me set the record straight. This isn't about NATO, and it never was. This is about Russia being an expansionist dictatorship run by a megalomaniac trying to recapture the glory of a brutal failed nation-state. Russia has a whole litany of excuses of why it invaded. NATO. "Russian speakers." "Ukrainian Nazis." "Zelensky corruption." They're all utter bullshit. Flimsy excuses to justify their bold-faced land grab. There is nothing more nuanced to it than that, and you fail to understand that. As I said, whether via your own ignorance or maliciousness, I don't particularly care. But that's the situation.

Russia doesn't want peace. They don't want NATO to "leave them alone" (it was doing that.) They wanted to become the next European empire. The US, the EU, and importantly Ukraine, are denying them that. And with the caliber of Russia's governance and apparent complete apathy towards its own horrors that its public displays, that's only a good thing that they are being so denied.

Putin had already warned the West about NATO expansion in 2007 and the West ignored it and surprised Pikachu face when Russia actually invaded Ukraine. It is convenient to absolve the West of any responsibility for the war and insist that it is solely Putin's imperial ambitions that have led to the suffering of poor Ukrainians. However, this Western narrative is not universally accepted, with many in Russia's unfriendly countries list not buying into it.

You keep accusing me of "justifying Russia's invasion", that's not what I am doing, what I am doing is stating the cause of the war. Stating what has led to the war is not akin to justifying Russia's actions. But hey, carry on with that accusation, you're lying to yourself. I stand by that the warmongering West and warmongering Russians are responsible for the suffering of the Ukrainians. The West is not innocent at all. This proxy conflict between the West and Russia is not black and white. It needs nuanced thinking about why it happened or the warmongering parties will never learn from it.

NATO is not purely a defensive alliance; it bombed Yugoslavia before, and Russia has every right to be concerned about the threat of NATO expansion. Moreover, NATO is led by the warmongering USA, which has time and time again caused chaos around the world, as seen in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. With an aggressive nation like the USA that has been involved in more wars than Russia, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Russia sees NATO as a threat.

You should stop consuming the MSM nonsense and look at the big picture. It's not as simple as 'Oh one day Putin suddenly has imperial ambitions and decided to invade Ukraine.'


Infracted.

[Corvus]

Regurgitates far right debunked talking points, claims to be 'neutral.'

[Edge-]

Putin had already warned the West about NATO expansion in 2007 and the West ignored it and surprised Pikachu face when Russia actually invaded Ukraine. It is convenient to absolve the West of any responsibility for the war and insist that it is solely Putin's imperial ambitions that have led to the suffering of poor Ukrainians. However, this Western narrative is not universally accepted, with many in Russia's unfriendly countries list not buying into it.

It's weird that, if this was the actual reason for the invasion, they maintained it was over some efforts to denazify the region and then moved to a few other justifications. Also, the NATO process had not even begun yet. There's always this "woe is Russia, their neighboring states hate their guts so much they'd prefer alternative trading and military alliances." nonsense is really weird because there's never once a question or examination why those nations might each be acting in their own self interest and if Russia's policies have resulted in this outcome.

Literally, Putin/Russia are the only ones causing the suffering. They can pack up and go back home tomorrow and this ends.

You keep accusing me of "justifying Russia's invasion", that's not what I am doing, what I am doing is stating the cause of the war. Stating what has led to the war is not akin to justifying Russia's actions. But hey, carry on with that accusation, you're lying to yourself. I stand by that the warmongering West and warmongering Russians are responsible for the suffering of the Ukrainians. The West is not innocent at all. This proxy conflict between the West and Russia is not black and white. It needs nuanced thinking about why it happened or the warmongering parties will never learn from it.

The paragraph I just quoted? That's justifying the invasion, dude. That's not stating a cause for the war, that's towing Russian propaganda. The west did nothing wrong. Russia needs to reevaluate its policies with its neighbors, and maybe internally, and maybe they'll stop fleeing for alternative alliances.

NATO is not purely a defensive alliance; it bombed Yugoslavia before, and Russia has every right to be concerned about the threat of NATO expansion. Moreover, NATO is led by the warmongering USA, which has time and time again caused chaos around the world, as seen in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. With an aggressive nation like the USA that has been involved in more wars than Russia, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Russia sees NATO as a threat.

I don't think, "They stepped in to try to stop ethnic cleansing.", while not exactly a truly black and white issue, is exactly the solid piece of evidence that Russia thinks it is in terms of reasons why NATO nations just might get together and jointly decide to commit their forces to an operation. I do enjoy how American interventions abroad, mostly in developing nations, are of primary concern for Russia, I guess also a developing nation. Just one with many, many, many nukes that of course NATO is going to gamble won't be used because we pretend nukes don't exist otherwise the Russian paranoia falls apart.

[TrueNeutral]

I don't think, "They stepped in to try to stop ethnic cleansing.", while not exactly a truly black and white issue

Ukraine has been trying to erase Russian culture, so I guess Russia stepped in to protect their own people (as Putin mentioned in his speech before the 'special military operation'), not truly black and white indeed. That makes both NATO and Russia on the same level of good and evil.
NATO has set the precedent for stepping in to protect others, Russia is just follow NATO's footsteps.

[PosPosPos]

Ukraine has been trying to erase Russian culture, so I guess Russia stepped in to protect their own people (as Putin mentioned in his speech before the 'special military operation'), not truly black and white indeed. That makes both NATO and Russia on the same level of good and evil.
NATO has set the precedent for stepping in to protect others, Russia is just follow NATO's footsteps.

Citation needed that isn't just "Putin or his lackeys said so".

Making up the most wild and untrue shit up to justify your brand of evil is about the most textbook play violent authoritarians use to justify invading other sovereign nations or oppressing the populace.

[Kaleredar]

Putin had already warned the West about NATO expansion in 2007 and the West ignored it and surprised Pikachu face when Russia actually invaded Ukraine.

Putin's thoughts on what NATO can and can't do are irrelevant. Nor do they have any input on who Ukraine allies with or doesn't ally with.

And clearly, Ukraine not joining NATO didn't prevent Russia invading them in 2014 and then again in 2022.

Maybe because Putin is a lying sack of shit.

It is convenient to absolve the West of any responsibility for the war and insist that it is solely Putin's imperial ambitions that have led to the suffering of poor Ukrainians.

It's convenient.

And accurate.

However, this Western narrative is not universally accepted, with many in Russia's unfriendly countries list not buying into it.

Damn I've never heard of the country "many."

You keep accusing me of "justifying Russia's invasion", that's not what I am doing, what I am doing is stating the cause of the war. Stating what has led to the war is not akin to justifying Russia's actions. But hey, carry on with that accusation, you're lying to yourself. I stand by that the warmongering West and warmongering Russians are responsible for the suffering of the Ukrainians. The West is not innocent at all. This proxy conflict between the West and Russia is not black and white. It needs nuanced thinking about why it happened or the warmongering parties will never learn from it.

It's not nuanced at all, because Russia is owed nothing in Ukraine and no part of Ukraine. But that is their goal, plain and simple: domination of Ukraine.

NATO is not purely a defensive alliance; it bombed Yugoslavia before, and Russia has every right to be concerned about the threat of NATO expansion. Moreover, NATO is led by the warmongering USA, which has time and time again caused chaos around the world, as seen in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. With an aggressive nation like the USA that has been involved in more wars than Russia, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Russia sees NATO as a threat.

Damn you're right, that must be why they invaded Finland and Sweden to stop their entrance into NATO.

Oh wait, Russia did nothing about Finland and Sweden, because those countries weren't easy pickings like Ukraine would be for their empire-building

Or at least, aren't the easy picking they thought Ukraine would be, more accurately.

You should stop consuming the MSM nonsense and look at the big picture.

"Don't believe the west and the rest of the world, they're lying to you about why we invaded" ~ Russia

I'm not going to believe the bully's version of the story.

It's not as simple as 'Oh one day Putin suddenly has imperial ambitions and decided to invade Ukraine.'

Of course it isn't that simple.

Who said he wanted to stop at Ukraine?




Russia in its current state is a feckless, amoral, deeply corrupt, unreliable, perennial-victim playing two-faced dealer on the global stage. Under Putin's Kremlin it is an entirely self-serving nation that will say and do whatever it thinks is necessary to attempt to justify its bald-faced militant ambitions.

And you're doing their legwork. Again, either through your own maliciousness or simple ignorance, it doesn't matter, because the rest of us are not.



So let me simplify this for you. Think of Russia as WW2-era nazi germany, and allow me to recontextualize some of your whinings of "oh but Ukraine wanted to..." and "but NATO..." in this more accurate lens:

"Nazi germany told Poland and France not to seek alliances with the UK, so of course the Nazis invaded!"

"The UK did lots of bad things in the world; look at their colonies! So it's no surprise that the Nazis were scared of France joining forces with them!"

"The Nazis promised they wouldn't invade so long as they were appeased! Why didn't the allies keep appeasing them? Why didn't they listen to what the nazis wanted?"

That's basically what you're saying.

Do that moving forward, and maybe you'll see why people are so revolted by your standpoint. Because maybe the Nazis just wanted to invade the rest of Europe. Just like how maybe Russia wants to do the same thing. But luckily, Russia is being stopped.

[Edge-]

Ukraine has been trying to erase Russian culture, so I guess Russia stepped in to protect their own people (as Putin mentioned in his speech before the 'special military operation'), not truly black and white indeed. That makes both NATO and Russia on the same level of good and evil.
NATO has set the precedent for stepping in to protect others, Russia is just follow NATO's footsteps.

Do you happen to have a link to that speech, by chance?

[TrueNeutral]

Do you happen to have a link to that speech, by chance?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addres...nts_in_Ukraine

[Corvus]

It's obviously a lie given that Zelensky is a russian speaker. You know, the person they elected president.

More, russia is so concerned about russian speakers in Ukraine they fed most of the males of Donbas into the meat grinder and proceeded to rape, torture and murder their way across the heaviest russian speaking parts of Ukraine.

Heck, not even nazi Germany treated german speakers in other nations the way nazi russia is.

- - - Updated - - -

That speech, word word for word, could have been given by Hitler to justify his invasions of neighbours. It's little wonder give russia is a nazi state.

[Edge-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addres...nts_in_Ukraine

I don't see any mention of what you said in the Wikipedia link in terms of genocide, just more recycled Russia propaganda about westerners infiltrating Ukraine along with conspiracy theories about an imminent invasion. You know, the stuff crazy people talk about.