Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Wilian]

It's of course Ukraine's choice, but I don't think anyone opposes seeking an end to the fighting. (and of course no one should trust russia so any negotiations should be conducted with great care.)

For now though, if Ukraine wants to fight, give them everything they need and then some.

Any break in conflict is only beneficial to Russia at this stage. They will use it to regroup, re-arm and then have another, better executed and prepared go.

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Ukraine has been trying to erase Russian culture, so I guess Russia stepped in to protect their own people (as Putin mentioned in his speech before the 'special military operation'), not truly black and white indeed. That makes both NATO and Russia on the same level of good and evil.
NATO has set the precedent for stepping in to protect others, Russia is just follow NATO's footsteps.

Gather yourself together mate. You are disingegrating too quickly. The blatant untrue accusations are at page 390 on the Guide How To Concern Troll About Ukraine And Ease Reader Into Moscow Narrative.

[TrueNeutral]

I don't see any mention of what you said in the Wikipedia link in terms of genocide, just more recycled Russia propaganda about westerners infiltrating Ukraine along with conspiracy theories about an imminent invasion. You know, the stuff crazy people talk about.

I didn't mention genocide (as in the deliberate eradication of a race). I mentioned Ukraine trying to erase Russian culture (maybe you can call this cultural genocide?) through actions like banning Russian books and implementing language policies that marginalize Russians in Ukraine. Putin sees this as a provocation, as his own people in Donbass are being harmed by the Kiev regime.

Imperial ambitions aside, Russia is stepping in to liberate their own people (that is one of their excuses), the ethnic Russians (I'm using the same excuse as NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia). If NATO can intervene to "save" people, they have no credibility in claiming to be a purely defensive alliance.

Every aggressor has its own excuses for invading a country, but Russia's excuse (of protecting their people in Donbass, NATO expansion etc) seems more sound than America's excuse of an imaginary nuke. That being said, two wrongs don't make a right.

[Wilian]

Your excuse of NATO in Yugoslavia misses the whole UN mandate bit, mandate Russia didnt vote to revoke btw.

[Iphie]

Any break in conflict is only beneficial to Russia at this stage. They will use it to regroup, re-arm and then have another, better executed and prepared go.

I'm not saying at this moment, I'm saying that no one should be opposed to the fighting stopping at some point and that the point when the negotiations start should be the choice of Ukraine.

[Wilian]

I'm not saying at this moment, I'm saying that no one should be opposed to the fighting stopping at some point and that the point when the negotiations start should be the choice of Ukraine.

Oh eventually yes butnit shouldnt happen in a fashion that is beneficial to the Russian Empire.

[Muzjhath]

I didn't mention genocide (as in the deliberate eradication of a race). I mentioned Ukraine trying to erase Russian culture (maybe you can call this cultural genocide?) through actions like banning Russian books and implementing language policies that marginalize Russians in Ukraine. Putin sees this as a provocation, as his own people in Donbass are being harmed by the Kiev regime.

Imperial ambitions aside, Russia is stepping in to liberate their own people (that is one of their excuses), the ethnic Russians (I'm using the same excuse as NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia). If NATO can intervene to "save" people, they have no credibility in claiming to be a purely defensive alliance.

Every aggressor has its own excuses for invading a country, but Russia's excuse (of protecting their people in Donbass, NATO expansion etc) seems more sound than America's excuse of an imaginary nuke. That being said, two wrongs don't make a right.

You do know that the Ukrainian President is a Russian Speaking Ukrainian right? As mentioned.

And the NATO established UN mission in Kosovo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...sion_in_Kosovo

[Edge-]

I didn't mention genocide (as in the deliberate eradication of a race). I mentioned Ukraine trying to erase Russian culture (maybe you can call this cultural genocide?) through actions like banning Russian books and implementing language policies that marginalize Russians in Ukraine. Putin sees this as a provocation, as his own people in Donbass are being harmed by the Kiev regime.

Do you mean the restrictions that began being instituted after Russia invaded?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...ooks_and_music

Or were there other issues? Miss me with believing Putin actually gives a shit about the average Russian, or average pro-Russian Ukrainian given the actions of the past few years.

Imperial ambitions aside, Russia is stepping in to liberate their own people (that is one of their excuses), the ethnic Russians (I'm using the same excuse as NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia). If NATO can intervene to "save" people, they have no credibility in claiming to be a purely defensive alliance.

See, this is where people have an issue with you. You're treating Russia's largely post-war justifications as if they're fact. Russia is stepping in, vs. Russia claims to be XYZ. Because Russia has repeatedly proven themselves to be wholly untrustworthy as a nation-state. This attempt to compare the actions of Russia, who were saving nobody from ethnic cleansing, and NATO, who were taking actions expressly to stop ethnic cleansing, is pretty awful. Like, lacking in any real critical thinking.

Every aggressor has its own excuses for invading a country, but Russia's excuse (of protecting their people in Donbass, NATO expansion etc) seems more sound than America's excuse of an imaginary nuke. That being said, two wrongs don't make a right.

Most excuses are shit. Earlier shit excuses don't justify later shit excuses. Stop trying to make this about America, America didn't invade Ukraine and American boots aren't on the ground.

[Easo]

Do you mean the restrictions that began being instituted after Russia invaded?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...ooks_and_music

You know what, I wanna bite - what do YOU think of these undoubtedly great restrictions?

[Edge-]

You know what, I wanna bite - what do YOU think of these undoubtedly great restrictions?

What I think is irrelevant. My point was that the restrictions don't appear to have been in place before the invasion and cannot have been used as justification for it. To point out that every "not-justification" that the poster is sharing is just Russian propaganda and not the reasoned, centrist take that the poster thinks they are.

[Dontrike]

Ukraine has been trying to erase Russian culture, so I guess Russia stepped in to protect their own people (as Putin mentioned in his speech before the 'special military operation'), not truly black and white indeed. That makes both NATO and Russia on the same level of good and evil.
NATO has set the precedent for stepping in to protect others, Russia is just follow NATO's footsteps.

If only you had proof that wasn't from your ass and a talking point that wasn't from your boss at the T farm.

[Xyonai]

Wow kinda funny and crazy that as soon as the Peace and Love (if you give into Russia's Demands) guy took a break the aggressive Vatnik showed up then only came back when the other guy got banned. Funny and crazy and coincidental that is, truly a marvel that doesn't at all feel like the days of Right wing sympathetic sea lions and their obvious shrieking burner accounts hopping back and forth in political discussion threads.

[Kaleredar]

Wow kinda funny and crazy that as soon as the Peace and Love (if you give into Russia's Demands) guy took a break the aggressive Vatnik showed up then only came back when the other guy got banned. Funny and crazy and coincidental that is, truly a marvel that doesn't at all feel like the days of Right wing sympathetic sea lions and their obvious shrieking burner accounts hopping back and forth in political discussion threads.

They have to either be getting paid or be so incredibly petty that they think they need to back Russia on a WoW gaming forum by creating numerous burner accounts to sift through.

The first is morally repugnant, the second is just... pathetic?

[Easo]

What I think is irrelevant. My point was that the restrictions don't appear to have been in place before the invasion and cannot have been used as justification for it. To point out that every "not-justification" that the poster is sharing is just Russian propaganda and not the reasoned, centrist take that the poster thinks they are.

So a non-answer then, but thank you anyway. Just that you ARE aware - the restrictions and movements towards them did start even before 2014, then they sped up.

[Wilian]

So a non-answer then, but thank you anyway. Just that you ARE aware - the restrictions and movements towards them did start even before 2014, then they sped up.

So lets pretend this imagination of yours is right. Pretend, because thats about the only thing that can be done about it.

Does it justify genocide and ethnic cleansing?

[Easo]

So lets pretend this imagination of yours is right. Pretend, because thats about the only thing that can be done about it.

Does it justify genocide and ethnic cleansing?

Ah yes, imagination. Whatever makes you sleep better at night I guess.

No, it doesn't. It also is funny to see the jump to BUT RUSSIA right away.

[Nymrohd]

This is primarily a Warcraft forum. Russians play WoW a lot. I mean they seem to sustain half the private servers by themselves. So maybe instead of imaginary troll farm agents maybe they are just actual Russians with opinions friendly to their elected regime?

[Specialka]

This is primarily a Warcraft forum. Russians play WoW a lot. I mean they seem to sustain half the private servers by themselves. So maybe instead of imaginary troll farm agents maybe they are just actual Russians with opinions friendly to their elected regime?

How dare you having some kind of sound reasoning !

[Nymrohd]

How dare you having some kind of sound reasoning !

My apologies I won't do it again.

[Jastall]

This is primarily a Warcraft forum. Russians play WoW a lot. I mean they seem to sustain half the private servers by themselves. So maybe instead of imaginary troll farm agents maybe they are just actual Russians with opinions friendly to their elected regime?

That may be the case, but I view parroting the whole "Russia attacked to stop Ukrainian Nazis from destroying Russian culture" stuff the same way I saw Americans parroting "we went into Irak because of WMDs and to give them freedom!". They're allowed to say it, I'm allowed to think it's brainless repetition of government propaganda. Especially coming from people who claim not to be Russians but repeat said arguments anyway.

[Saradain]

This is primarily a Warcraft forum. Russians play WoW a lot. I mean they seem to sustain half the private servers by themselves. So maybe instead of imaginary troll farm agents maybe they are just actual Russians with opinions friendly to their elected regime?

It makes little difference in the end. Only the other type gets paid in turnips. And the other mindlessly regurgitates propaganda script vomited by the other.