1. #35641
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    May I remind everyone that we speak English on this forum and it's spelled as Ukraine and Ukrainians in English.

  2. #35642
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    Ukraine isn't sending soldiers to genocide the entirety of RuZZia. Try again, but this time try being smart.
    okraine was genociding ukrainians good enough for the past 8 years. And you never cared, you never knew, you drank the westoid koolaid, you never talked to us, who lived in this hell. You still don't give a flying fuck.
    Try again, indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    May I remind everyone that we speak English on this forum and it's spelled as Ukraine and Ukrainians in English.
    meanwhile:
    >vatniks
    >RuZZia
    >RuZZiAn OrKs

    Sorry if it did come off as stingy.
    I didn't mean to.

  3. #35643
    Oh boy, another couple pages wasted on Russian propagandist trolls. Things must not be going well for them.

  4. #35644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    NATO was extremely unpopular in Sweden in 2010. I was weird for being largely positive about it.
    In 2014 for no reason at all it became more popular.
    In 2022 it got a majority of wanting to join.

    Ask yourself why. What made NATO grow in popularity?
    Quote Originally Posted by PgStckr View Post
    Dunno, probably, Sweden being one of the top-4 countries with the highest percentage of rapes happening in 2023?
    As this is the correct thread.
    So, once again beating the practically dead horse of rape statistics. Which are bad yes!
    But there's a very good reason for it!
    Lots of things that is rape actually is counted as rape in Sweden!

    Did you know that unless you have a penis you cannot commit rape in the UK?
    The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent. Assault by penetration is when a person penetrates another person's vagina or anus with any part of the body other than a penis, or by using an object, without the person's consent.
    Did you know that in a lot of countries if you force someone to give you oral sex it's never counted as "rape"?
    That in some countries spousal rape isn't a crime?
    Etcaetc

    Why are Sweden's numbers high? Two reasons.
    One: We count far more things that are seen as "sexual assault" in a lot of legal codes as "rape".
    Two: Reporting is higher.

    It's not that more rapes happen in Sweden, it's that less rapes are covered up.

    Now back to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.
    They are trying/did that because of Russian Aggression.

    Had Russia had a more popular puppet in Yanukovych, who was only elected with 49% of the vote mind. And then did lots of unpopular shit. Among others going towards Russia economically, swinging away from what had been happening before with governments wanting closer ties to the EU (as they saw that being better for the country as a whole).
    That latter is the background for his ouster. Not some conspiracy. Did the EU and the USA like that he was kicked out? Yeah, it fucking suited them. Did they work for it? No, they didn't. Some private people might have but show how those people bribed, and whom, and we can bring them up for corruption charges as they should (briber and bribed).

    The whole trying to end the Russian language thing, and banning books.
    It just made it so you needed a permission to import books. A fairly common thing. If I order books from the US I need to pay a tariff on those. If I'd order 100'000 of a single book I'm 100% certain I'd need to register that as I obviously plan to sell or give those away.

    On ending Russian as a language. The current President of Ukraine is a native Russian speaker.
    He was a reaction to both Yanukovych and Poroshenko, as both were seen as being corrupt etc. If he's stopped speaking Russian in the day to day do you know why?
    Russia's actions towards Ukraine.

    Did NATO get closer to Russia? Yes.
    But not because of aggression from NATO, but because stupid diplomacy by Russia. I wonder if Estonia would have joined without the Chechen War...
    Most countries joining have done so in reaction to activities by Russia, or by memories of the Warsaw pact.
    - Lars

  5. #35645
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post


    But the war isn't just about Russia and Ukraine; it is also about US aggression and NATO expansion. The US is a party in this war, and it is important to acknowledge America's propensity for aggression and why Russia is threatened by NATO. The US is not an innocent party. Before I am accused of victim blaming (lol) again, let me reiterate that nothing justifies Russia's invasion, yet neither NATO nor the USA are innocent parties (nor is Russia). Ukraine is the victim here as a result of Russia and the West's failed foreign policy.
    And Russia's propensity for aggression is why Ukraine wants to be in NATO in the first place. Because its most powerful neighbor acts like a bully who wishes to seize control of their lands and eradicate their culture, so they want protection. Countries like the Balkans or now Finland are also Russian neighbors, also don't like Russia for various reasons, and yet aren't invaded. Also for various reasons but the first one is because NATO protects them. That comes with strings attached obviously- no international entity is ever a saint- but are you incapable of understanding why it is seen by almost all of Russia's ex-vassals in Eastern Europe as preferable to Russia's influence? Do you really just chalk it up to evil USA manipulated them?

    America doesn't act like such a bully to its neighbors (I know, I live in one) so the bizarro land what-if scenario of Mexico and Canada doesn't apply in actual reality.

    Mearsheimer was already name dropped in the thread, by someone who had the exact same "me so neutral while repeating Russian propaganda" shtick so it may have actually been you. In case it's not, I'll repeat my argument; it ignores Ukraine as a sovereign entity with an agency. This isn't the Cold War anymore and nations that wish to rid themselves of American influence are definitely capable of doing so. Ukraine sides with the West because Russia gives it two choices; be a vassal state or be invaded. It's their right to follow most of Eastern Europe. Russia can be mad about it. It can prove them right and invade them. Ukraine has a right to then want to defend itself and not see its territory and population ripped away piecemeal by a hostile foreign power. Ukraine isn't just a victim in this, but an active actor. The most active one in fact, even if you refuse to see it such with your "lol Zelensky comedian" jokes ripped straight from Telegram.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  6. #35646
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    And Russia's propensity for aggression is why Ukraine wants to be in NATO in the first place
    It's funny talking about American aggression in a thread discussing Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

  7. #35647
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's funny talking about American aggression in a thread discussing Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    To be fully clear, America IS more than capable of being highly aggressive. The Muslim world will have more than their fair share of tales to tell on the matter, for starters.

    NATO isn't part and parcel of American aggression tho. It's a defensive pact with a fairly specific focus and purpose. None of America's invasions since WW2 have involved it. And while America definitely is the organisation's heavyweight, it's not its absolute leader either. It can't just, like, tell all those countries to attack Russia or whatever other Call of Duty-inspired brainfart of an idea some people think NATO is about. Just getting Finland in resulted in tons of bickering. Which is why some people using it a strawman is fairly telling to me. As if there were no differences between America and NATO, and as if NATO was primarily responsible for Russia invading a non-NATO member, somehow.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  8. #35648
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    To be fully clear, America IS more than capable of being highly aggressive. The Muslim world will have more than their fair share of tales to tell on the matter, for starters.

    NATO isn't part and parcel of American aggression tho. It's a defensive pact with a fairly specific focus and purpose. None of America's invasions since WW2 have involved it. And while America definitely is the organisation's heavyweight, it's not its absolute leader either. It can't just, like, tell all those countries to attack Russia or whatever other Call of Duty-inspired brainfart of an idea some people think NATO is about. Just getting Finland in resulted in tons of bickering. Which is why some people using it a strawman is fairly telling to me. As if there were no differences between America and NATO, and as if NATO was primarily responsible for Russia invading a non-NATO member, somehow.
    Absolutely, there's no shortage of America galavanting around the world to spread democracy and save people from themselves or protect our oil interests etc. etc.

    But Russia, of all nations, complaining about that, especially while engaged in an active war they began by invading their neighbor, is pretty top quality comedy.

    And similarly, NATO largely doesn't get involved in US "policing" efforts short of some support for the war in Afghanistan following 9/11. NATO continues to be the convenient bogeyman for Russia to complain about because they're not and will not be invited to (at least for a while longer) the cool kids club. Which isn't surprising for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which being the frequent and convenient falling out of windows or random shootings across the street from the Kremlin for political opponents. You know, things you see in NATO member nations on the regular : P

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://news.yahoo.com/russian-stude...130554490.html

    Things are going so well for Russia a student group is going around asking other students to donate their vape pens for the war effort. The absolute state of things.

  9. #35649
    IMHO the most important thing right now is the last week's announcement of Ukraine's mobilisation plan change, which should happen during sometime this week.
    Chiefly, the minimum age and if students will be conscripted.

  10. #35650
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ies-russia-war

    The Ukrainian government is planning to change its conscription practices as it seeks to sustain fighting capacity after nearly two years of full-fledged war with Russia.

    The changes, expected to be announced this week, will include the use of commercial recruitment companies to carry out more targeted conscription and to reassure conscripts they will be deployed in roles that match their skills and not simply sent to the front, according to one senior official.

    “Some people are scared, scared to die, scared to shoot, but it doesn’t mean they can’t be involved in other activities … Now we have a new minister with a new approach,” Oleksiy Danilov, the secretary of Ukraine’s security council, told the Guardian.

    In early September, the president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, sacked Oleksii Reznikov, who had been defence minister since the beginning of the war, and replaced him with Rustem Umerov, who spent the early part of the war working on doomed negotiations with Russia. On Friday, Zelenskiy said he expected Umerov’s ministry to provide him with a package of new mobilisation policies this week.

    “The plan will be worked out and all the answers will be there – next week I will see this plan,” Zelenskiy told a news conference, without giving further details.

    Danilov said the army would work with two of Ukraine’s biggest recruitment companies in order to identify people with specific skills, and to dissuade skilled Ukrainians who wanted to help the army but did not want to go to the front from trying to evade the draft.

    “The mobilisation will become more flexible, those specialities that are required will be announced, and people will be volunteering for a concrete position. For example, they need welders or mechanics and so on,” said Danilov.

    A source in the defence ministry confirmed that contracts had been signed with recruitment companies, but did not give any further details. It was not immediately clear how involved the recruitment companies would be in the process, nor at what level general recruitment for frontline work would continue alongside the more targeted process.

    Zelenskiy’s announcement comes as Ukraine prepares to face another winter at war, with widespread fatigue at the front and amid society at large. The summer and autumn Ukrainian counteroffensive has failed to win back large amounts of territory, and there are increasing voices among Ukraine’s western partners suggesting in private that sooner or later Kyiv may need to consider attempting a negotiated end to the war.

    In the first months of the war, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians volunteered to fight, as part of a wave of patriotic determination that shocked Russia and repelled its initial advances. But as the war has dragged on, most people who are willing to fight have already signed up, and many of those already at the front are injured or exhausted.

    Increasingly, the army has had to turn to mobilisation to fill the ranks. Viral videos have shown men snatched from the street to be conscripted, and there have been numerous corruption scandals of officials taking bribes to provide exemption. In August, Zelenskiy fired every regional recruitment chief.

    Once conscripted, recruits get a few weeks of training and can then be sent to the front. Many Ukrainians say if called upon they would go to the army, but many men of conscription age who do not want to be sent to the front have spent weeks or months hiding at home, trying to avoid the roaming squads of mobilisation officers. Many join Telegram groups in which people share tips on where mobilisation officers are working on any given day.

    In the summer, sources in Odesa explained a popular scheme in the city, whereby for a fee of $5,000 in cash, men who did not want to serve could receive a fake medical report suggesting serious spinal issues, with which they would be declared exempt from conscription and be allowed to leave the country.

    Danilov admitted there was a recruitment issue but said Russian propaganda was exaggerating the scale of the problem. “Russia is trying to heat up this issue, saying that we don’t have enough soldiers, that we have problems with mobilisation … There are always problems in life, let’s not overestimate it,” he said.
    Mobilisation does not always mean sending people to a meatgrinder. Other skills are valuable too. And corruption from soviet times still going on doesn't make it any easier.

  11. #35651
    Russians never seem to understand the basic concept that everyone around Russia is fleeing into the arms of NATO because that is the only protection against Russia's aggression over failing to 100% serve Russia's interests.

    If Russia wasn't threatening everyone who doesn't fall in line they wouldn't be looking to join NATO.

    And its not just NATO. See whatever Eastern Asia country (I want to say Kazakhstan?) that signed a mutual defence pact with China following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They all know the only way to leave Russia's shadow is under the cover of a Super power.
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2023-11-27 at 11:55 PM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #35652
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Russians never seem to understand the basic concept that everyone around Russia is fleeing into the arms of NATO because that is the only protection against Russia's aggression over failing to 100% serve Russia's interests.

    If Russia wasn't threatening everyone who doesn't fall in line they wouldn't be looking to join NATO.
    This continues to be a drum I bang whenever folks come in here to talk about how concerned the US would rightfully be if China started building bases in Canada and Mexico and shit. And like yeah, I get it! No nation wants that!

    That's why most nations usually seek positive, close ties with their geographic neighbors specifically to help create a "buffer" around themselves. And also because there are a wide range of economic and social benefits to close ties, too. Because this way the US, even if relations with Mexico have been a bit rocky recently, doesn't really have to worry about such a hypothetical - because despite our internal problems and some...issues in the past 8 years or so, we still aren't antagonizing and worrying our neighbors to the point where seeking closer ties with global competitors becomes a more attractive offer.

    That it's repeatedly been shown to be a more attractive offer for the former USSR members currently bordering Russia should speak volumes about the consequences of the policies Russia has chosen to pursue on this front. If Russia ends up finding itself surrounded by enemies, or perceived enemies, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

  13. #35653
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Russians never seem to understand the basic concept that everyone around Russia is fleeing into the arms of NATO because that is the only protection against Russia's aggression over failing to 100% serve Russia's interests.

    If Russia wasn't threatening everyone who doesn't fall in line they wouldn't be looking to join NATO.

    And its not just NATO. See whatever Eastern Asia country (I want to say Kazakhstan?) that signed a mutual defence pact with China following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They all know the only way to leave Russia's shadow is under the cover of a Super power.
    You want to say Kazakhstan because it is Kazakhstan.

    I think most of the other former soviet central asian nations have some agreements with China too now that might not be fully mutual defence (Since Russia can't get to them without going through Kazakhstan anyway) but it's basically "Hey China, we don't like this guy anymore. We want to be with you!". Including a major trade road being built by China which is basically a FUCK YOU to Russia with intent.

  14. #35654
    Speaking of Khazakhstan, both they and Uzbekestan are considering the purchase of 24 French Rafale fighters each. Normally they'd go to russia for planes, but seeing as how russia is now an arms importer rather than an exporter and russia is an untrustworthy country they are looking elsewhere to upgrade their air forces.

  15. #35655
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    To be fully clear, America IS more than capable of being highly aggressive. The Muslim world will have more than their fair share of tales to tell on the matter, for starters.

    NATO isn't part and parcel of American aggression tho. It's a defensive pact with a fairly specific focus and purpose. None of America's invasions since WW2 have involved it. And while America definitely is the organisation's heavyweight, it's not its absolute leader either. It can't just, like, tell all those countries to attack Russia or whatever other Call of Duty-inspired brainfart of an idea some people think NATO is about. Just getting Finland in resulted in tons of bickering. Which is why some people using it a strawman is fairly telling to me. As if there were no differences between America and NATO, and as if NATO was primarily responsible for Russia invading a non-NATO member, somehow.

    "Russia had to attack because Ukraine wanted to join NATO! NATO was AGGRAVATING RUSSIA!"

    "Hmmm, but why did Ukraine want to join NATO?"
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #35656
    More proof of russia's failing arms exports - the Dubai Airshow 2023 took place this month, the largest airshow in the middle east. Back in 2017 it made $10 billion in sales, dropping to $1.3 billion in 2021. This year it made $0 dollars in sales. No one would touch their gear. Meanwhile, players like Boeing, Lockhead and Airbus made sales totaling $67 billion.

  17. #35657
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Russians never seem to understand the basic concept that everyone around Russia is fleeing into the arms of NATO because that is the only protection against Russia's aggression over failing to 100% serve Russia's interests.

    If Russia wasn't threatening everyone who doesn't fall in line they wouldn't be looking to join NATO.

    And its not just NATO. See whatever Eastern Asia country (I want to say Kazakhstan?) that signed a mutual defence pact with China following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They all know the only way to leave Russia's shadow is under the cover of a Super power.
    They understand it, or at least the leadership of Russia does. The Russians just want these countries to feel guilty because they want to join NATO instead of submitting to "the Motherland" like they do on a daily basis. It's typical abusive spouse behavior. "I only hit you because you gave me a reason to. Just don't give me a reason to hit you and I won't!" It's a weak man's attempt to shift blame away from themselves.

  18. #35658
    pottie signed off on the new russian budget for 2024 which will increase war spending by 70%, to take up 30% of the budget. Throw in other security apparatus and it hits 40%. And that is factoring in their belief they can increase revenue by over 22% in one year - so tax hikes and cost cuts as they aren't going to be getting it by high oil prices they are counting on.

    One of those measures to cut costs is to stop indexation of all salaries for ALL government salaries except those in military/security forces. Given high levels of inflation, that is in effect a big wage cut for all those people - better go off and sign up then. Or resort to even more corruption and embezzlement.

    And pootie is back to banging the drum of demography again, calling on women to emulate the 'traditions' of their grandmothers and great-grandmothers and return to having 7 to 8 kids each. Of course all services are being cut to support them so they'll all be living in poverty like the good serfs they are.

  19. #35659
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    having 7 to 8 kids each.
    That's a 1st class Mother's cross right there.

  20. #35660
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    pottie signed off on the new russian budget for 2024 which will increase war spending by 70%, to take up 30% of the budget. Throw in other security apparatus and it hits 40%. And that is factoring in their belief they can increase revenue by over 22% in one year - so tax hikes and cost cuts as they aren't going to be getting it by high oil prices they are counting on.
    However, note that even if 40% of government spending the government spending is only about a third of GDP, so it is 13% of GDP or so.
    Far above the NATO-target, but also far below government spending when a country actually commits to a total war.

    In perspective, last year Ukraine spent 30% of GDP on defense (according to SIPRI), and during WWII the US spent up to 40% of GDP on the war.

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