Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

I'm sure it's gonna be a close one!

Eh, he could die beforehand, or a coup could happen...

(If he's alive he'll most likely win, but if he's dead then shit might get a bit more tricky)

[Odinfrost]

Russia pushing for AI development so Putin can be "alive" forever.
Well, Russian oligarchs

[The Stormbringer]

Russia pushing for AI development so Putin can be "alive" forever.
Well, Russian oligarchs

They... do understand that at best, it would just be something that can imitate his style of speaking, right? Right? It wouldn't actually have all his knowledge and skills and connections...

[Gabriel]

Fuck the Olympic Committee btw. They are going to let Russian and Belorussian athletes participate next summer, just not under the Russian or Belorussian flag.

[Iphie]

Fuck the Olympic Committee btw. They are going to let Russian and Belorussian athletes participate next summer, just not under the Russian or Belorussian flag.

We've had that discussion already, people are not going to agree on this.

[zorkuus]

Russia pushing for AI development so Putin can be "alive" forever.
Well, Russian oligarchs

Their new Lenin. A grotesque reminder of the "glory days".

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We've had that discussion already, people are not going to agree on this.

Then they need to boycott the olympics. However many countries do not have the spine for it.

[Dontrike]

Russia pushing for AI development so Putin can be "alive" forever.
Well, Russian oligarchs

I think your previous post put it perfectly.

They saw what happened in Hollywood and followed suit.

[Saradain]

I agree on principle, I just want to add that this behavior is common to all great powers. Go ask middle east, Africa and all other places that we have ravaged.

Also, sanctions won't "strangle them them dry" as long as the majority of world's population is doing business with them.

I am not responsible for whatever other countries have done in the past. Neither is Ukraine. Russia is ravaging Africa even as we speak via at-least-former-Wagner stuff they got going on there and leeching riches. Also this is a thread about Ukraine-Russia, not whatever unrelated countries have done.

Sanctions can always be added, if it forces Russia to become China's vassal state, all the same for me.

[Edge-]

A Vietnam War 2.0 is simply not sustainable.

Please, stop. We already don't take you seriously, you can stop working hard to make sure we don't take you seriously.

[Iphie]

Then they need to boycott the olympics. However many countries do not have the spine for it.

You misunderstood me, but that's on me to communicate better, I meant: people on this board will disagree among eachother.

[DarkTZeratul]

The lack of support from the Republicans is a good thing. Perhaps this will finally encourage the West and Ukraine to come to the negotiation table.

RUSSIA. INVADED. UKRAINE. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Russia is the one who needs to come to the negotiating table if they refuse to stop invading Ukraine. Stop telling the battered wife to negotiate with her husband who's punching her. There is nothing neutral about acknowledging that Russia is in the wrong while putting the onus on Ukraine to make concessions to stop them.

[Kallisto]

Then they need to boycott the olympics. However many countries do not have the spine for it.

Then we need to get with the argument. If someone falls out of a vagina within dumb lines of map as another person are they super guilty as the other person. because if you go by the logic of everyone is guilty of their own crimes, not of others, then punishing random people for just being from the same landmass is stupid.

[TrueNeutral]

RUSSIA. INVADED. UKRAINE. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Russia is the one who needs to come to the negotiating table if they refuse to stop invading Ukraine. Stop telling the battered wife to negotiate with her husband who's punching her. There is nothing neutral about acknowledging that Russia is in the wrong while putting the onus on Ukraine to make concessions to stop them.

I have already acknowledged that Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is the victim, that is beyond neutral. Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate. It is Zelensky's (and the West) delusion that the Ukraine can defeat Russia militarily that he refuses to negotiate, even when he is clearly at a weaker position now.

I would love to hear the alternative to a negotiation with Ukraine's dwindling support and bleeding manpower.

[DarkTZeratul]

Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate.

No, Putin has indicated that Russia will leave if Ukraine gives in to all its demands and refuses to join any alliance that would deter Russia from invading again. That's not negotiation, that's extortion, and from a country that has thus far violated every single agreement with Ukraine it's made since the end of the USSR. Remember how Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for Russia promising to respect its sovereignty and territorial boundaries? How's that going for them, exactly?

I would love to hear the alternative to a negotiation with Ukraine's dwindling support and bleeding manpower.

Easy: Russia fucks off and leaves them alone. They can literally end the war today, entirely unilaterally, by doing so. It's also the objectively morally correct outcome, given that they are the agressor and Ukraine is the victim. You don't tell the victim to negotiate with the agressor, you tell the agressor to fuck off.

[Edge-]

Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate.

Are we just going to pretend that Vladimir Putin has not violated agreements whenever it suits him or that he is a trustworthy partner, here?

[Fuiking]

I have already acknowledged that Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is the victim, that is beyond neutral. Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate. It is Zelensky's (and the West) delusion that the Ukraine can defeat Russia militarily that he refuses to negotiate, even when he is clearly at a weaker position now.

I would love to hear the alternative to a negotiation with Ukraine's dwindling support and bleeding manpower.

Ukraine isnt going to accept the russian demands.. Also if they did, Russia would feel embolded to attempt this in the Baltics.

[TrueNeutral]

Are we just going to pretend that Vladimir Putin has not violated agreements whenever it suits him or that he is a trustworthy partner, here?

So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?

Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.

The former will inevitably lead to the collapse of the Kiev regime, the latter could ultimately lead to the same result as the former, or peace between both nation. At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).

[Gabriel]

So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?

Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.

The former will inevitably lead to the collapse of the Kiev regime, the latter could ultimately lead to the same result as the former, or peace between both nation. At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).

Russia will attempt to conquer the entire Ukraine anyway. It's best to destroy as much of the Russian military as possible without letting Russia recover.

[DarkTZeratul]

If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine. .

Putin HAS violated multiple treaties already, Ukraine IS giving them hell, and you're steadfastly insisting this is actually, somehow, the West's fault and Ukraine needs to just suck it up, give Russia what it wants, and hope they won't break their promise yet again.

At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).

Fuuuuck offff with this absolute bullshit. The moral high ground doesn't win wars. Besides which, Ukraine already has the moral high ground because, as you acknowledged, RUSSIA IS THE AGGRESSOR. And yet all you do is bitch and whine and moan about how Ukraine needs to negotiate. How Ukraine needs to make concessions. How Ukraine needs to give up future guarantees of protection and security, give Russia Ukrainian land, and let Russia dictate the terms of Ukrainian foreign policy, because it's so sad and tragic that Russia is killing, raping, and maiming Ukrainians who I guess have been tricked by "the West" into defending their homes against the Russians who were apparently also tricked by "the West" into invading Ukraine. God forbid Russia gives up their imperialist ambitions in Ukraine and fucks off back home. No, they're only guilty of starting the entire fucking war and committing genocide against Ukraine; why should they have to lose anything to stop the fighting that's entirely their fault that they started?

[Edge-]

So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?

Until they themselves choose to take a different course: Yes. They are a sovereign nation capable of making their own decisions. This whole treating them as if they're some infant or puppet of the west schtick has been old and boring for a while now.

Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.

Assuming they have any reason to trust someone who has consistently proven themselves untrustworthy. If a husband beats his wife a dozen times, promising to stop beating her after each time, do you think he's going to beat her a 13th time? Data says yes, he very likely will. But you're asking the wife to trust that her husband won't beat her. Or to make this more fitting - the guy she's about to marry who has a long, long, history of domestic abuse won't beat her.

It flies in the face of logic and rationality.