1. #35861
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    A Vietnam War 2.0 is simply not sustainable.
    Please, stop. We already don't take you seriously, you can stop working hard to make sure we don't take you seriously.

  2. #35862
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    2,852
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post

    Then they need to boycott the olympics. However many countries do not have the spine for it.
    You misunderstood me, but that's on me to communicate better, I meant: people on this board will disagree among eachother.

  3. #35863
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    The lack of support from the Republicans is a good thing. Perhaps this will finally encourage the West and Ukraine to come to the negotiation table.
    RUSSIA. INVADED. UKRAINE. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Russia is the one who needs to come to the negotiating table if they refuse to stop invading Ukraine. Stop telling the battered wife to negotiate with her husband who's punching her. There is nothing neutral about acknowledging that Russia is in the wrong while putting the onus on Ukraine to make concessions to stop them.

  4. #35864
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Then they need to boycott the olympics. However many countries do not have the spine for it.
    Then we need to get with the argument. If someone falls out of a vagina within dumb lines of map as another person are they super guilty as the other person. because if you go by the logic of everyone is guilty of their own crimes, not of others, then punishing random people for just being from the same landmass is stupid.

  5. #35865
    Field Marshal TrueNeutral's Avatar
    1+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Location
    Revendreth
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    RUSSIA. INVADED. UKRAINE. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Russia is the one who needs to come to the negotiating table if they refuse to stop invading Ukraine. Stop telling the battered wife to negotiate with her husband who's punching her. There is nothing neutral about acknowledging that Russia is in the wrong while putting the onus on Ukraine to make concessions to stop them.
    I have already acknowledged that Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is the victim, that is beyond neutral. Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate. It is Zelensky's (and the West) delusion that the Ukraine can defeat Russia militarily that he refuses to negotiate, even when he is clearly at a weaker position now.

    I would love to hear the alternative to a negotiation with Ukraine's dwindling support and bleeding manpower.

  6. #35866
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate.
    No, Putin has indicated that Russia will leave if Ukraine gives in to all its demands and refuses to join any alliance that would deter Russia from invading again. That's not negotiation, that's extortion, and from a country that has thus far violated every single agreement with Ukraine it's made since the end of the USSR. Remember how Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for Russia promising to respect its sovereignty and territorial boundaries? How's that going for them, exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    I would love to hear the alternative to a negotiation with Ukraine's dwindling support and bleeding manpower.
    Easy: Russia fucks off and leaves them alone. They can literally end the war today, entirely unilaterally, by doing so. It's also the objectively morally correct outcome, given that they are the agressor and Ukraine is the victim. You don't tell the victim to negotiate with the agressor, you tell the agressor to fuck off.
    Last edited by DarkTZeratul; 2023-12-08 at 06:31 PM.

  7. #35867
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate.
    Are we just going to pretend that Vladimir Putin has not violated agreements whenever it suits him or that he is a trustworthy partner, here?

  8. #35868
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    I have already acknowledged that Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is the victim, that is beyond neutral. Putin has indicated many times that Russia is ready to negotiate. It is Zelensky's (and the West) delusion that the Ukraine can defeat Russia militarily that he refuses to negotiate, even when he is clearly at a weaker position now.

    I would love to hear the alternative to a negotiation with Ukraine's dwindling support and bleeding manpower.
    Ukraine isnt going to accept the russian demands.. Also if they did, Russia would feel embolded to attempt this in the Baltics.

  9. #35869
    Field Marshal TrueNeutral's Avatar
    1+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Location
    Revendreth
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Are we just going to pretend that Vladimir Putin has not violated agreements whenever it suits him or that he is a trustworthy partner, here?
    So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?

    Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.

    The former will inevitably lead to the collapse of the Kiev regime, the latter could ultimately lead to the same result as the former, or peace between both nation. At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).

  10. #35870
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?

    Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.

    The former will inevitably lead to the collapse of the Kiev regime, the latter could ultimately lead to the same result as the former, or peace between both nation. At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).
    Russia will attempt to conquer the entire Ukraine anyway. It's best to destroy as much of the Russian military as possible without letting Russia recover.

  11. #35871
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine. .
    Putin HAS violated multiple treaties already, Ukraine IS giving them hell, and you're steadfastly insisting this is actually, somehow, the West's fault and Ukraine needs to just suck it up, give Russia what it wants, and hope they won't break their promise yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).
    Fuuuuck offff with this absolute bullshit. The moral high ground doesn't win wars. Besides which, Ukraine already has the moral high ground because, as you acknowledged, RUSSIA IS THE AGGRESSOR. And yet all you do is bitch and whine and moan about how Ukraine needs to negotiate. How Ukraine needs to make concessions. How Ukraine needs to give up future guarantees of protection and security, give Russia Ukrainian land, and let Russia dictate the terms of Ukrainian foreign policy, because it's so sad and tragic that Russia is killing, raping, and maiming Ukrainians who I guess have been tricked by "the West" into defending their homes against the Russians who were apparently also tricked by "the West" into invading Ukraine. God forbid Russia gives up their imperialist ambitions in Ukraine and fucks off back home. No, they're only guilty of starting the entire fucking war and committing genocide against Ukraine; why should they have to lose anything to stop the fighting that's entirely their fault that they started?
    Last edited by DarkTZeratul; 2023-12-08 at 06:56 PM.

  12. #35872
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?
    Until they themselves choose to take a different course: Yes. They are a sovereign nation capable of making their own decisions. This whole treating them as if they're some infant or puppet of the west schtick has been old and boring for a while now.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.
    Assuming they have any reason to trust someone who has consistently proven themselves untrustworthy. If a husband beats his wife a dozen times, promising to stop beating her after each time, do you think he's going to beat her a 13th time? Data says yes, he very likely will. But you're asking the wife to trust that her husband won't beat her. Or to make this more fitting - the guy she's about to marry who has a long, long, history of domestic abuse won't beat her.

    It flies in the face of logic and rationality.

  13. #35873
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Then we need to get with the argument. If someone falls out of a vagina within dumb lines of map as another person are they super guilty as the other person. because if you go by the logic of everyone is guilty of their own crimes, not of others, then punishing random people for just being from the same landmass is stupid.
    They're not random people. Athletes represent their country and its values, like it or not. And you don't get to represent your country in an autocracy if you don't sign along its tune.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    Or take the chance and negotiate for a peace settlement? If Putin violates the treaty, Ukraine will retaliate and give Russia hell, and the West will likely be more emboldened in their support for Ukraine.
    Putler and ruZZia has already violated everything, multiple times. There's no reason to give them the 999th chance.

  14. #35874
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    So what is the alternative? For Ukrainians to continue fighting amid dwindling support and manpower, which means Ukraine's military will eventually collapse thus giving Russia the opportunity to conquer the entire Ukraine?
    The alternative is to support Ukraine more, and not be alarmist. You have a choice in that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    At least the latter will give Ukraine the moral high ground for trying (to seek peace).
    That seems like the Russian style of negotiation: pretend to give Ukraine something they already have; in this case the moral high ground.

  15. #35875
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Premium
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    ...location, location!
    Posts
    15,272
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    So what is the alternative?
    What is the alternative? The alternative is for Russia to leave. To turn around, and go back home, to their own country. That is the alternative.

    Because even if the USA, Europe, and all the other countries supporting Ukraine stopped giving support, Ukrainians would fight tooth and nail, and if and when Russia starts rolling in, they would break their military apart into cells to operate during the occupation phase, because there would have to be an occupation phase, unless Russia plans on murdering every single Ukrainian and planting their flag atop a mountain of corpses.

  16. #35876
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    What is the alternative? The alternative is for Russia to leave. To turn around, and go back home, to their own country. That is the alternative.

    Because even if the USA, Europe, and all the other countries supporting Ukraine stopped giving support, Ukrainians would fight tooth and nail, and if and when Russia starts rolling in, they would break their military apart into cells to operate during the occupation phase, because there would have to be an occupation phase, unless Russia plans on murdering every single Ukrainian and planting their flag atop a mountain of corpses.
    Lets not pretend that wasn't the plan all along.

  17. #35877
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Lets not pretend that wasn't the plan all along.
    We can really only speculate, but a lot of analyses have been published over the past two years and the one I favour is the one that said Russia is terrified about their demographics. Their "core" population (Orthodox Russians) is getting older and smaller in number whereas their Muslim population is growing dynamically. Some projections expect Russia to become a majority Muslim country at some point later this century. Capturing a large Orthodox population would remedy that but is not accomplished by exterminating Ukraine.

    All those kidnapped children certainly seem to support the demographic angle.

  18. #35878
    It should be horrifying to see that people support extrajudicial killings but I guess I am not surprised anymore.
    Rule of law, lul.

    Also the latest support package from Germany involves... 250 artillery shells. Not a typo. You should all ask WTF is going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  19. #35879
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    It should be horrifying to see that people support extrajudicial killings but I guess I am not surprised anymore.
    "Extrajudicial killings"? They're openly at war with Russia and he joined the other side. How do you not understand this simple concept?

  20. #35880
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    It should be horrifying to see that people support extrajudicial killings
    I'm pretty sure every kill in a fucking war is like that. Think McFly, think!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •