Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Benggaul]

Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one.

*eyeroll* No, ignoring their earlier shitfits isn't helpful. It informs their motivations. Besides:

And so we circle back to whataboutism again. Deflect from the undefendable.

[zorkuus]

Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one.

Doesn't fucking matter. One has to be blind, naive or stupid to not recognize the obvious and usual ruZZian whataboutism on display there. To even entertain this discussion (valid or not), is just playing right into their hands.

Yet when you see what he is replying to, it's pretty clear he still denies a genocide that Russia has intended, has committed itself to, and has officially been recognized of doing. His modus operandi is clear, and now you have given him a greenlight to continue. Quick jabs at linking random youtubers, one-liners without any input from himself, just vague replies as he obviously cannot defend his viewpoints for which he has been sent to a vacation before.

Exactly. I can't believe a mod is giving a troll permission to derail this in such a manner and even engaging in the whataboutism themselves.

[Rozz]

Stop discussing moderation and requesting bans/calling troll.

Additionally, we're not going to discuss "acceptable forms" of ethnic division/expulsion as an alternative to types of genocide.

[Kokolums]

Diversity is not a weakness, communautarism is.

if you were biden, would you feel comfortable some personal security detail that you suspect may be pro-Hamas and anti-israel? would your military be compromised if its ranks are suspected to be filled with people who are pro-hamas or pro-trump? what if you have an army where a large chunk of soldiers are second generation latinos who speak english as a second language or barely at all to the point where basic communication is compromised. thats where diversity becomes a problem.


Infracted.

[Belize]

if you were biden, would you feel comfortable some personal security detail that you suspect may be pro-Hamas and anti-israel? would your military be compromised if its ranks are suspected to be filled with people who are pro-hamas or pro-trump? what if you have an army where a large chunk of soldiers are second generation latinos who speak english as a second language or barely at all to the point where basic communication is compromised. thats where diversity becomes a problem.

Being pro-terrorism != diversity lmao, stop taking the piss

[prwraith]

Honestly we should just handle Russia once and for all. It's a shit hole nobody has cared about for years and they've done nothing but cause problems on the world stage.

[Edge-]

if you were biden

If only you were so lucky.

would you feel comfortable some personal security detail that you suspect may be pro-Hamas and anti-israel?

We live in such a binary world! But this is the Russia thread dude, not the Israel/Hamas thread.

would your military be compromised if its ranks are suspected to be filled with people who are pro-hamas or pro-trump?

Again, unsure if you know what thread you're in. This is the thread on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, not Donald Trump or the Israel/Hamas war.

what if you have an army where a large chunk of soldiers are second generation latinos who speak english as a second language or barely at all to the point where basic communication is compromised. thats where diversity becomes a problem.

You really have the strangest fantasies. Just to entertain this one for a second: Learn some Espanol, hombre. Queiro dos tacos, por favor.

[Nymrohd]

Ethnic cleansing?..

My grandparents had to leave everything behind when they left Turkey during the population exchange. Had my grandmother stayed in Constantinople, she'd likely be dead by 1955 at the Pogrom.
After each of the World Wars dozens of countries did population exchanges. Yes, it was ethnic cleansing. Mutually agreed cleansing. But those people remained alive. You know who the exception was were no one agreed to an exchange? Israel. It worked real well for everyone . . .

So y'all can get the vapors like old ladies but back when people were actually pragmatic because they had seen war and violence beyond their TV screens, they considered exchanging populations the better option to just keeping people in lands were they will no longer be welcome. Anyone who identifies as ethnic Russian (and is that even a thing? Can we really discern ethnicity among these two populations beyond self-determination?) will likely be less than welcome.

And that doesn't even take into account the unknown number of civilians that have moved into Crimea or the eastern provinces during Russian occupation. If Ukraine reclaims any of those lands you think it would be better for them to stay put instead of returning to Russia???

Of course Russia might want to keep the people it "saved" during this "special operation" so it is unlikely for an exchange to happen.

[Forogil]

I know, but russia isn't really succeeding in the total genocide. We should not forget that "merely" killing will not constitute a genocide, like a thousand civilian casualties would not make it a genocide, especially if they were accidental. Now what russia is doing definitely is a genocide, there is no doubt about it. (or at the very least an attempted genocide)

The reason I say that is because while killing people of a group is a criterium there must also be intent, which there is, but if you would apply that criterium strictly then soldiers killing soldiers are committing genocide since they have the intent to kill as many people of a given group, and I don't think that will stick.

You are right that the intent is necessary for it to be counted as genocide, but killing is just one of the possible acts.

It's genocide (according to the UN) when you have the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group (Russia clearly has shown the intent - by declaring that Ukraine isn't even a real country); and you do one of the following:

1. killing members of the group
2. causing them serious bodily or mental harm
3. imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group
4. preventing births
5. forcibly transferring children out of the group.

Russia is clearly guilty of the fifth one (Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova are charged by the ICC) - and through the war of 1-3. The more uplifting story is that some of the children are returning, https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ds-2023-12-08/

[Ivanstone]

You are right that the intent is necessary for it to be counted as genocide, but killing is just one of the possible acts.

It's genocide (according to the UN) when you have the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group (Russia clearly has shown the intent - by declaring that Ukraine isn't even a real country); and you do one of the following:

1. killing members of the group
2. causing them serious bodily or mental harm
3. imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group
4. preventing births
5. forcibly transferring children out of the group.

Russia is clearly guilty of the fifth one (Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova are charged by the ICC) - and through the war of 1-3. The more uplifting story is that some of the children are returning, https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ds-2023-12-08/

#4 as well. There has been castrations of Ukrainian POWs.

[Forogil]

#4 as well. There has been castrations of Ukrainian POWs.

Russia treating it as a check-list that they must cross off all items on, I see.

[Iphie]

#4 as well. There has been castrations of Ukrainian POWs.

Heck bombing hospitals and maternity wards would already cover that

You are right that the intent is necessary for it to be counted as genocide, but killing is just one of the possible acts.

It's genocide (according to the UN) when you have the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group (Russia clearly has shown the intent - by declaring that Ukraine isn't even a real country); and you do one of the following:

1. killing members of the group
2. causing them serious bodily or mental harm
3. imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group
4. preventing births
5. forcibly transferring children out of the group.

Russia is clearly guilty of the fifth one (Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova are charged by the ICC) - and through the war of 1-3. The more uplifting story is that some of the children are returning, https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ds-2023-12-08/

Yes, I know, that's why I used "criterium", singular.

[alach]

Pretty sure I have linked at least 5 instances of legally defined genocide personally here over the last couple years.
If there's any doubt, I refer one to look once again to what they did to Melitopol.

[Belize]

Honestly we should just handle Russia once and for all. It's a shit hole nobody has cared about for years and they've done nothing but cause problems on the world stage.

FWIW, breaking up Russia in a multitude of feudal states ruled over by local tinpot dictators who will inevitably all have delusions of reuniting the USSR and that will have access to whatever nuclear weapons they were able to grab in the chaos, is not a whole lot better than the current situation...

[Nilinor]

FWIW, breaking up Russia in a multitude of feudal states ruled over by local tinpot dictators who will inevitably all have delusions of reuniting the USSR and that will have access to whatever nuclear weapons they were able to grab in the chaos, is not a whole lot better than the current situation...

It reminds me of people saying we should just "take over North Korea and fix it". Even if China wasn't there to stop that or let it go through, its TOTALLY not worth the time to do. Same would be for Russia, its not worth the time or energy, especially for a group of people that would resist the entire way. They just need to be beaten in the war, then left alone to do whatever they want in their borders, while watching them to make sure they dont do something stupid with all the old tech they have lying around.

[Xyonai]

It reminds me of people saying we should just "take over North Korea and fix it". Even if China wasn't there to stop that or let it go through, its TOTALLY not worth the time to do. Same would be for Russia, its not worth the time or energy, especially for a group of people that would resist the entire way. They just need to be beaten in the war, then left alone to do whatever they want in their borders, while watching them to make sure they dont do something stupid with all the old tech they have lying around.

Honestly the best case scenario at this point is Putin finally passing away (Natural Causes or Murder, take your pick) and the following succession snaffu keeps Russia busy for a while reorienting itself as everyone now in charge pretends like the previous administration didn't happen, like what happened after Stalin died in a puddle of his own shit, and whoever comes out on top decides that being an absolute bellend to everyone else isn't good for business.

Sure they could still be bellends, lord knows your leadership being packed with absolute jackasses isn't a deal breaker when engaging with the international community, but at least just playing nice would go a long way for them to rebuild their image and knock one unstable pariah state off the world stage for a while.

[Gabriel]

FWIW, breaking up Russia in a multitude of feudal states ruled over by local tinpot dictators who will inevitably all have delusions of reuniting the USSR and that will have access to whatever nuclear weapons they were able to grab in the chaos, is not a whole lot better than the current situation...

As long as they war with each other I have no problems with that.

[Gorsameth]

FWIW, breaking up Russia in a multitude of feudal states ruled over by local tinpot dictators who will inevitably all have delusions of reuniting the USSR and that will have access to whatever nuclear weapons they were able to grab in the chaos, is not a whole lot better than the current situation...

If such a breakup were to inevitably happen I would not be surprised if NATO and China went on a joint mission to secure former Russia's nuclear arsenal to prevent exactly that.

[Iphie]

If such a breakup were to inevitably happen I would not be surprised if NATO and China went on a joint mission to secure former Russia's nuclear arsenal to prevent exactly that.

They need to secure three people, putin, Shoigu and Gerasimov, those three have the authority to launch, but only together, if one says no it doesn't happen. Funny how, theoretically, the russian nuclear arsenal is harder to use than the American...

[Gorsameth]

They need to secure three people, putin, Shoigu and Gerasimov, those three have the authority to launch, but only together, if one says no it doesn't happen. Funny how, theoretically, the russian nuclear arsenal is harder to use than the American...

I mean secure the nukes themselves so no future warlord can use them.