1. #36021
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    And I don't blame you for that opinion. Poland getting removed is somewhat sensible given how they do shit there. A pity my wife is polish so I would still have to endure traveling there whether Poland remains in the EU or not
    Poland changed its government and is one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy

  2. #36022
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Come on mods. Can't you get these kremlin trolls banned for a bit more time?
    How many times do they have to make a comeback before you understand what's going on?
    Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one. Ukraine's own 2001 census (latest one in their Wiki article) stated 17.1% of their population was of Russian ethnicity. This is, of course, much less than the number of Russian speakers at the time (30% of the population). Even then, ethnicity is always a matter of self-identification to a degree. Someone with both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors may have defined themselves as Russian at the time, especially in Russian-speaking areas and they might think differently after two years of special military operation. And we have reports of Russian speakers, having witnessed the atrocities of the invaders, taking up Ukrainian in numbers.

    But whatever the numbers are, Ukraine will be bound to recognise minority rights, including language rights. Especially if they want to join the EU. At the same time, census data can not be the foundation of territorial expansion.

  3. #36023
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one. Ukraine's own 2001 census (latest one in their Wiki article) stated 17.1% of their population was of Russian ethnicity. This is, of course, much less than the number of Russian speakers at the time (30% of the population). Even then, ethnicity is always a matter of self-identification to a degree. Someone with both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors may have defined themselves as Russian at the time, especially in Russian-speaking areas and they might think differently after two years of special military operation. And we have reports of Russian speakers, having witnessed the atrocities of the invaders, taking up Ukrainian in numbers.

    But whatever the numbers are, Ukraine will be bound to recognise minority rights, including language rights. Especially if they want to join the EU. At the same time, census data can not be the foundation of territorial expansion.
    I have to say, I know people oppose this idea but given we can clearly see the catastrophic results of not doing so with Israel, a population exchange will all but be required when this war ends.
    So I'll say that when Ukraine does join the EU, it should not have an ethnic Russian minority.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-12-15 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #36024
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one. Ukraine's own 2001 census (latest one in their Wiki article) stated 17.1% of their population was of Russian ethnicity. This is, of course, much less than the number of Russian speakers at the time (30% of the population). Even then, ethnicity is always a matter of self-identification to a degree. Someone with both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors may have defined themselves as Russian at the time, especially in Russian-speaking areas and they might think differently after two years of special military operation. And we have reports of Russian speakers, having witnessed the atrocities of the invaders, taking up Ukrainian in numbers.

    But whatever the numbers are, Ukraine will be bound to recognise minority rights, including language rights. Especially if they want to join the EU. At the same time, census data can not be the foundation of territorial expansion.
    Yet when you see what he is replying to, it's pretty clear he still denies a genocide that Russia has intended, has committed itself to, and has officially been recognized of doing. His modus operandi is clear, and now you have given him a greenlight to continue. Quick jabs at linking random youtubers, one-liners without any input from himself, just vague replies as he obviously cannot defend his viewpoints for which he has been sent to a vacation before.

  5. #36025
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Poland changed its government and is one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy
    Can you elaborate instead of posting that kind of phrase that means nothing ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I have to say, I know people oppose this idea but given we can clearly see the catastrophic results of not doing so with Israel, a population exchange will all but be required when this war ends.
    So I'll say that when Ukraine does join the EU, it should not have an ethnic Russian minority.
    A population exchange would not be seen as a genocide of some kind (legally speaking) ?

  6. #36026
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Can you elaborate instead of posting that kind of phrase that means nothing ?
    PiS lost the elections did they not? And they have decent gdp growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    A population exchange would not be seen as a genocide of some kind (legally speaking) ?
    It's the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide.

  7. #36027
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    PiS lost the elections did they not? And they have decent gdp growth.



    It's the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide.
    That alone does not make them a "one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy". And I am waiting for the new gov to remove most of the laws that the PiS voted.

    So it is ok to do one 'for the greater good' and not the other ? Looks like a slippery slope to me.

  8. #36028
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    That alone does not make them a "one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy". And I am waiting for the new gov to remove most of the laws that the PiS voted.

    So it is ok to do one 'for the greater good' and not the other ? Looks like a slippery slope to me.
    If Russia is oh-so-worried for the russian speakers in Ukraine that they are going gung-ho for genocide, an amicable "population exchange" as in lawful, willing relocation of those who wish to identify themselves russians, currently living in Ukraine sounds like a good idea to avoid these..."misunderstandings".

  9. #36029
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    If Russia is oh-so-worried for the russian speakers in Ukraine that they are going gung-ho for genocide, an amicable "population exchange" as in lawful, willing relocation of those who wish to identify themselves russians, currently living in Ukraine sounds like a good idea to avoid these..."misunderstandings".
    There is nothing pretty about a population exchange even when lawful. I grew up with the stories from my grandparents, all of them were displaced.
    But imo it is still better than the alternative.

  10. #36030
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There is nothing pretty about a population exchange even when lawful. I grew up with the stories from my grandparents, all of them were displaced.
    But imo it is still better than the alternative.
    Well yeah, if Russia makes up excuses that range from nazis to worries, you can't appease them but at least you can say you tried. Terrorist nazi state will do its natural thing and invade either way.

    If the world truly wants this war to end, then supply Ukraine enough to drive out the orcs from Crimea and other lawfully recognized regions alike. Then EU, NATO membership and the threat suddenly is gone forever, as was with Finland.

    Russia sure fears NATO when they abandon their northern bases next to Finland after NATO membership came. Makes you think...

  11. #36031
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one.
    *eyeroll* No, ignoring their earlier shitfits isn't helpful. It informs their motivations. Besides:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    And so we circle back to whataboutism again. Deflect from the undefendable.

  12. #36032
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one.
    Doesn't fucking matter. One has to be blind, naive or stupid to not recognize the obvious and usual ruZZian whataboutism on display there. To even entertain this discussion (valid or not), is just playing right into their hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Yet when you see what he is replying to, it's pretty clear he still denies a genocide that Russia has intended, has committed itself to, and has officially been recognized of doing. His modus operandi is clear, and now you have given him a greenlight to continue. Quick jabs at linking random youtubers, one-liners without any input from himself, just vague replies as he obviously cannot defend his viewpoints for which he has been sent to a vacation before.
    Exactly. I can't believe a mod is giving a troll permission to derail this in such a manner and even engaging in the whataboutism themselves.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2023-12-15 at 03:02 PM.

  13. #36033
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    8,809
    Stop discussing moderation and requesting bans/calling troll.

    Additionally, we're not going to discuss "acceptable forms" of ethnic division/expulsion as an alternative to types of genocide.
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
    "If you have any concerns, let me know via PM. I'll do my best to assist you."

  14. #36034
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Diversity is not a weakness, communautarism is.
    if you were biden, would you feel comfortable some personal security detail that you suspect may be pro-Hamas and anti-israel? would your military be compromised if its ranks are suspected to be filled with people who are pro-hamas or pro-trump? what if you have an army where a large chunk of soldiers are second generation latinos who speak english as a second language or barely at all to the point where basic communication is compromised. thats where diversity becomes a problem.


    Infracted.
    Last edited by Flarelaine; 2023-12-15 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Israel has a separate thread and we pointed it out a couple of times
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  15. #36035
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Gen-OT College of Shitposting
    Posts
    21,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    if you were biden, would you feel comfortable some personal security detail that you suspect may be pro-Hamas and anti-israel? would your military be compromised if its ranks are suspected to be filled with people who are pro-hamas or pro-trump? what if you have an army where a large chunk of soldiers are second generation latinos who speak english as a second language or barely at all to the point where basic communication is compromised. thats where diversity becomes a problem.
    Being pro-terrorism != diversity lmao, stop taking the piss

  16. #36036
    Honestly we should just handle Russia once and for all. It's a shit hole nobody has cared about for years and they've done nothing but cause problems on the world stage.

  17. #36037
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    if you were biden
    If only you were so lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    would you feel comfortable some personal security detail that you suspect may be pro-Hamas and anti-israel?
    We live in such a binary world! But this is the Russia thread dude, not the Israel/Hamas thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    would your military be compromised if its ranks are suspected to be filled with people who are pro-hamas or pro-trump?
    Again, unsure if you know what thread you're in. This is the thread on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, not Donald Trump or the Israel/Hamas war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    what if you have an army where a large chunk of soldiers are second generation latinos who speak english as a second language or barely at all to the point where basic communication is compromised. thats where diversity becomes a problem.
    You really have the strangest fantasies. Just to entertain this one for a second: Learn some Espanol, hombre. Queiro dos tacos, por favor.

  18. #36038
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Ethnic cleansing?..
    My grandparents had to leave everything behind when they left Turkey during the population exchange. Had my grandmother stayed in Constantinople, she'd likely be dead by 1955 at the Pogrom.
    After each of the World Wars dozens of countries did population exchanges. Yes, it was ethnic cleansing. Mutually agreed cleansing. But those people remained alive. You know who the exception was were no one agreed to an exchange? Israel. It worked real well for everyone . . .

    So y'all can get the vapors like old ladies but back when people were actually pragmatic because they had seen war and violence beyond their TV screens, they considered exchanging populations the better option to just keeping people in lands were they will no longer be welcome. Anyone who identifies as ethnic Russian (and is that even a thing? Can we really discern ethnicity among these two populations beyond self-determination?) will likely be less than welcome.

    And that doesn't even take into account the unknown number of civilians that have moved into Crimea or the eastern provinces during Russian occupation. If Ukraine reclaims any of those lands you think it would be better for them to stay put instead of returning to Russia???

    Of course Russia might want to keep the people it "saved" during this "special operation" so it is unlikely for an exchange to happen.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-12-15 at 05:48 PM.

  19. #36039
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I know, but russia isn't really succeeding in the total genocide. We should not forget that "merely" killing will not constitute a genocide, like a thousand civilian casualties would not make it a genocide, especially if they were accidental. Now what russia is doing definitely is a genocide, there is no doubt about it. (or at the very least an attempted genocide)

    The reason I say that is because while killing people of a group is a criterium there must also be intent, which there is, but if you would apply that criterium strictly then soldiers killing soldiers are committing genocide since they have the intent to kill as many people of a given group, and I don't think that will stick.
    You are right that the intent is necessary for it to be counted as genocide, but killing is just one of the possible acts.

    It's genocide (according to the UN) when you have the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group (Russia clearly has shown the intent - by declaring that Ukraine isn't even a real country); and you do one of the following:
    1. killing members of the group
    2. causing them serious bodily or mental harm
    3. imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group
    4. preventing births
    5. forcibly transferring children out of the group.
    Russia is clearly guilty of the fifth one (Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova are charged by the ICC) - and through the war of 1-3. The more uplifting story is that some of the children are returning, https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ds-2023-12-08/

  20. #36040
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You are right that the intent is necessary for it to be counted as genocide, but killing is just one of the possible acts.

    It's genocide (according to the UN) when you have the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group (Russia clearly has shown the intent - by declaring that Ukraine isn't even a real country); and you do one of the following:
    1. killing members of the group
    2. causing them serious bodily or mental harm
    3. imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group
    4. preventing births
    5. forcibly transferring children out of the group.
    Russia is clearly guilty of the fifth one (Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova are charged by the ICC) - and through the war of 1-3. The more uplifting story is that some of the children are returning, https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ds-2023-12-08/
    #4 as well. There has been castrations of Ukrainian POWs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •