1. #36561
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Just showing how much you understand how the world works. Endus should be the last person you should be quoting
    Yeah we should totally be listening to random French people who make inflammatory assertions without evidence, instead. /s

    An appeal to popularity fallacy is still fallacious regardless of the size of the population involved or however many times you move the goalposts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #36562
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    I cherish every initiative that stops the EU from continuing propping up this regime.
    Is Orbán actually popular over there? What about sentiment regarding russia?

  3. #36563
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Is Orbán actually popular over there?
    Yes. Irredentism, revanchism and "special snowflakeism" is deeply rooted in the Hungarian national psyche, and Orban tapped into that deeply.

    He also took some lessons from Putin and has full control over all Hungarian language media.

    Hungarians have some of the worst English language skills in the EU, which in turn means they get almost no dissenting opinions.

    Nevertheless, he'd probably still lose elections in Hungary proper.

    The problem is that Hungary has given the franchise to millions of ethnic Hungarians in sorrounding nations and Orban buys their vote via subventions and nationalist propaganda.

    What about sentiment regarding russia?
    That's the one I can't wrap my brain around. Hungarians have been fucked over by the Russians about 5 times in the last 150 years. They have every reason to absolutely despise the Russians. I don't think Hungarians, even Orban supporters are specifically pro-Russia. I think they rather just see this whole thing as an opportunity to further their own goals.

  4. #36564
    Yeah, Orban is good example on when you control the media you control the masses. Even so, I heard he's at odds constantly with the mayor of Budapest which is supposedly a pretty liberal and European city.

  5. #36565
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Is Orbán actually popular over there? What about sentiment regarding russia?
    About one quarter to third of the voters are his hardcore supporters. But he has been writing the rules for the last 14 years so that is enough for repeated supermajorities when another third cannot be arsed to vote and the rest are divided, so even some of those vote for him - there is a money shower just before elections and fearmongering is perpetual.

    Public opinion turned around completely regarding Russia. Remember, Russia has been a trampler of our freedom fights several times but right now they are our buddies because oppression by stupid West. /s Brainwashing is effective. Orbán seized all government media then either crushed or bought the rest and is dumping insane money into spamming his propaganda on every possible channel. Independent media only exists in the form of some news sites - some of them do heroic muckraking but they are drowned out in the online space and have no access to a sizable chunk of the population, mostly elderly and/or rural, who never moved past print media and government TV.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Yes. Irredentism, revanchism and "special snowflakeism" is deeply rooted in the Hungarian national psyche, and Orban tapped into that deeply.

    He also took some lessons from Putin and has full control over all Hungarian language media.

    Hungarians have some of the worst English language skills in the EU, which in turn means they get almost no dissenting opinions.

    Nevertheless, he'd probably still lose elections in Hungary proper.

    The problem is that Hungary has given the franchise to millions of ethnic Hungarians in sorrounding nations and Orban buys their vote via subventions and nationalist propaganda.
    Can't argue with any of that except the last two paragraphs: ethnic Hungarians in surrounding countries do not count 1 for 1 and they were never actually needed to tip the scales.



    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    That's the one I can't wrap my brain around. Hungarians have been fucked over by the Russians about 5 times in the last 150 years. They have every reason to absolutely despise the Russians. I don't think Hungarians, even Orban supporters are specifically pro-Russia. I think they rather just see this whole thing as an opportunity to further their own goals.
    Orbán's supporters and a lot of non-committed voters (we do indeed have a lot of those! Orbán's media makes sure that even if you hate him at least hate all the others as well) have actually turned pro-Russia or at least anti-West. Government-sponsored victim mentality ties in nicely with all the other stuff in your first paragraph.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by alach View Post
    Yeah, Orban is good example on when you control the media you control the masses. Even so, I heard he's at odds constantly with the mayor of Budapest which is supposedly a pretty liberal and European city.
    Oh, the city is staunchly against him. That is why they still have no candidate for mayor despite elections coming up in 4 months. They know whoever they run will fail so they are looking for a spoiler candidate and/or a Trojan horse.

  6. #36566
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Is Orbán actually popular over there? What about sentiment regarding russia?
    Hungary isn't a democracy at present so his popularity really isn't the determining factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #36567
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Just showing how much you understand how the world works. Endus should be the last person you should be quoting
    Apparently they understand it better than you, as you’ve cited no evidence to support your contention that supposedly most of the world supports whatever nebulous ”Russian morals” you’re espousing.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  8. #36568
    I wonder where those 65 PoW's went... -.-

    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Harsh. Bit authoritarian, but hey that's what Hungary desires apparently. (Also the usual caveat: until it's out in the world via big newsoutlets it's questionable.)
    What is the legal basis for this? Where does in EU laws it says countries can be punished for voting differently?
    The circus is real. Keep doing this, what can possibly go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Their beliefs are wrong.

    It's not up to the rest of the world to educate or understand Russia. They can educate themselves about where the cards fall vis-a-vis their "superiority." Because right now it's clearly quite the delusion.
    Jesus christ... I love how your post literally does the opposite and is a perfect example of Western hubris. This is exactly what West does - tries to educate others and absolutely have a sense of superiority over everyone not democratic or not sharing the same values.

    "Their beliefs are wrong!!11". Here's another example - Chinese generally support their goverment - yet we definitely are saying that their goverment is shit. 1.4 billion Chinese are wrong? Tell me, is it not a hubris to make such sweeping claims about 1/7th of all mankind, not a sense of superiority?

    And while no one here can read or cares I still will explain - this is not about morality and the right thing, even if they are true nor does it matter if they are - it is about doing exactly what others think West is doing. Kremlin loves you very very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  9. #36569
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    "Their beliefs are wrong!!11". Here's another example - Chinese generally support their goverment - yet we definitely are saying that their goverment is shit. 1.4 billion Chinese are wrong? Tell me, is it not a hubris to make such sweeping claims about 1/7th of all mankind, not a sense of superiority?
    Yes rofl, this is just a blanket appeal to popularity as if that's ever been a strong argument.

  10. #36570
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I wonder where those 65 PoW's went... -.-



    What is the legal basis for this? Where does in EU laws it says countries can be punished for voting differently?
    The circus is real. Keep doing this, what can possibly go wrong?



    Jesus christ... I love how your post literally does the opposite and is a perfect example of Western hubris. This is exactly what West does - tries to educate others and absolutely have a sense of superiority over everyone not democratic or not sharing the same values.

    "Their beliefs are wrong!!11". Here's another example - Chinese generally support their goverment - yet we definitely are saying that their goverment is shit. 1.4 billion Chinese are wrong? Tell me, is it not a hubris to make such sweeping claims about 1/7th of all mankind, not a sense of superiority?

    And while no one here can read or cares I still will explain - this is not about morality and the right thing, even if they are true nor does it matter if they are - it is about doing exactly what others think West is doing. Kremlin loves you very very much.
    I don’t care if they think they’re right. Every populace of a dystopian society thinks their society is “correct.” Usually because they’ve been so brow-beaten and abused that they can’t conceive of anything different.

    That the Russian government or Chinese government or whatever dictatorship has beaten their populace into submission does not make that system “right” or “just.”

    For example: I don’t care how many Germans supported nazi germany. I don’t care if imperial japan or fascist Italy, "other countries," supported them. They were wrong, and their society was wrong.



    It’d be bad enough, but ultimately ignorable, if Russia kept its horrid little abusive society within their own borders. But clearly, they aren’t content to do that. Just ask Ukraine.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2024-01-30 at 11:04 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  11. #36571
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    What is the legal basis for this? Where does in EU laws it says countries can be punished for voting differently?
    The circus is real. Keep doing this, what can possibly go wrong?
    I dunno, I',m not an EU law expert, but I'm sure they wouldn't consider it if they can't make it stick.

  12. #36572
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    What is the legal basis for this? Where does in EU laws it says countries can be punished for voting differently?
    The circus is real. Keep doing this, what can possibly go wrong?
    Hungary isn't being punished for voting differently.

    Hungary is being punished for sabotaging European security and for using that to blackmail the EU into concessions on previous sanctions tied to corruption and other legal violations.

    The suspension of Hungary's voting rights has been long overdue.

  13. #36573
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    The suspension of Hungary's voting rights has been long overdue.
    Seconded.


    (yes, my location is correct)

  14. #36574
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I wonder where those 65 PoW's went... -.-

    What is the legal basis for this? Where does in EU laws it says countries can be punished for voting differently?
    The circus is real. Keep doing this, what can possibly go wrong?

    Jesus christ... I love how your post literally does the opposite and is a perfect example of Western hubris. This is exactly what West does - tries to educate others and absolutely have a sense of superiority over everyone not democratic or not sharing the same values.

    "Their beliefs are wrong!!11". Here's another example - Chinese generally support their goverment - yet we definitely are saying that their goverment is shit. 1.4 billion Chinese are wrong? Tell me, is it not a hubris to make such sweeping claims about 1/7th of all mankind, not a sense of superiority?

    And while no one here can read or cares I still will explain - this is not about morality and the right thing, even if they are true nor does it matter if they are - it is about doing exactly what others think West is doing. Kremlin loves you very very much.
    Adding more words to an ad populam fallacy doesn’t make it less fallacious, part deux.

    The west is arrogant, yes, but it isn’t because they haven’t been listening to your doomposting about Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #36575
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Just showing how much you understand how the world works. Endus should be the last person you should be quoting
    I will quote him over you every fucking time, since you have NEVER been right.

  16. #36576
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    I will quote him over you every fucking time, since you have NEVER been right.
    You and others not agreeing with me does not mean I am not right. Do not be so arrogant

  17. #36577
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You and others not agreeing with me does not mean I am not right. Do not be so arrogant
    You have NEVER been right, you will never post a fucking source, and you make extremely outlandish claims. Then when you get called out on it, you run and fucking hide.

  18. #36578
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    You have NEVER been right, you will never post a fucking source, and you make extremely outlandish claims. Then when you get called out on it, you run and fucking hide.
    Nah, I just do not want to waste time to educate people that live in their illusion. Can't help people that do not want to be helped.

  19. #36579
    So then, over these past weeks, terrorist neonazi regime of okraine has done such heroic deeds as:
    1. Bomb civillians on market in Donetsk
    2. Bomb civillians near ice rink in Belgorod
    3. Bomb yet even more civillians in Donetsk
    4. Shoot down a transport jet full of their own POWs

    The fourth point is quite intersting, what with okrainians spreading a literal flood of so-called "PEREMOGA" messages on how they managed to down a jet, then shamefully deleting their messages and/or lying about said jet through their teeth. Damage control including, but not limited to: there were no POWs, there were rockets transported, or even such feats of humanity like "we don't care if those 65 guys died, we robbed Russia of a plane."

    One might wonder why would okrainians claim Donetsk and Crimea (along with people there) to be parts of okraine, yet are continiously shooting and bombing allegedly their own.

    On the positive note, we might recall about 200-something frogs being squished in Kharkov the other day.
    That is not to mention the destruction of a museum dedicated to a literal nazi shukhevich.

  20. #36580
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by PgStckr View Post
    So then, over these past weeks, terrorist neonazi regime of okraine has done such heroic deeds as:
    1. Bomb civillians on market in Donetsk
    2. Bomb civillians near ice rink in Belgorod
    3. Bomb yet even more civillians in Donetsk
    4. Shoot down a transport jet full of their own POWs

    The fourth point is quite intersting, what with okrainians spreading a literal flood of so-called "PEREMOGA" messages on how they managed to down a jet, then shamefully deleting their messages and/or lying about said jet through their teeth. Damage control including, but not limited to: there were no POWs, there were rockets transported, or even such feats of humanity like "we don't care if those 65 guys died, we robbed Russia of a plane."

    One might wonder why would okrainians claim Donetsk and Crimea (along with people there) to be parts of okraine, yet are continiously shooting and bombing allegedly their own.

    On the positive note, we might recall about 200-something frogs being squished in Kharkov the other day.
    That is not to mention the destruction of a museum dedicated to a literal nazi shukhevich.
    Do you have anything to say that isn't a falsehood/propaganda? Probably not because the day you get off from your holiday, you are so eager to head back. /wave

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