Russian invasion of Ukraine

[ghotihook]

A retired US general was scathing about Russia's performance in Ukraine: 'Their navy sucks, their air force sucks'

How does he feel about US funding to Ukraine?

That's what I even said from the very beginning. A tiny fraction of our military spending to absolutely cripple and expose what was supposed to be one of our closest rivals. Without losing a single American. Best money spent in almost 80 years.

[Iphie]

Without losing a single American.

Officially... (no I'm not loopy, I mean there's been fallen American volunteers)

[YUPPIE]

A retired US general was scathing about Russia's performance in Ukraine: 'Their navy sucks, their air force sucks'

How does he feel about US funding to Ukraine?

that's extremely disingenous when Russia just made a major gain

[Specialka]

that's extremely disingenous when Russia just made a major gain

A costly symbolic gain would be more accurate.

[Saradain]

that's extremely disingenous when Russia just made a major gain

You have, as always, a distorted view of what actually happened. Russians could advance 1 inch to capture a sandbox and you'd be announcing the end of a nation. A small city, that was fortified to keep as a meat grinder for the orcs, took its time to fall, be that part of US Ukraine aid being delayed by russian-licking idiots or otherwise. The city that fell (and was already utterly in ruins) used to be a 32k population city. Is that a major gain when it already was entirely rubble??

[Rasulis]

That's what I even said from the very beginning. A tiny fraction of our military spending to absolutely cripple and expose what was supposed to be one of our closest rivals. Without losing a single American. Best money spent in almost 80 years.

Almost half of Russia Black Sea Fleet of approximately 80 ships have been devastated in the last 2 years. 25 destroyed and 15 under repair. I would say that alone would qualify as good return on investment.

[DarkTZeratul]

that's extremely disingenous when Russia just made a major gain

First, not a major gain. Second, what did it cost them to take that city?

[Easo]

Can you spell it out more explicitly?

I think most of us are aware of the supply issues Ukraine is facing, especially artillery shells leading them to ration their current supply. Because as we all know Republicans in Congress are doing Donald's bidding and not passing more aid for Ukraine, and European commitments haven't been completely fulfilled even as they separately commit more funding.

These things can be true, and Ukraine may have lost a strategically important city, while they have small victories elsewhere and the like.



We all did and largely came to the same conclusions.

Maybe your clever implications are just too clever for us and you should be more explicit? It might help things along so we don't have another handful of exchanges with you dancing around whatever point you're trying to make here.

My point is simple - you believe in obvious lies, specifically primarily based on two things: "Russia always lies"/"Ukraine does not lie" and blind trust in the Western officials, because you contrary to all the claims are just as susceptible to propaganda as Russians are + highly influnced by stereotypes even as you deny having them.

Example - S-300 which supposedly are used in land strikes, cue endless accusations about Russia shelling civilians with them. Pray tell - how does radar guided missile hit that far? Most funniest claim was hit in Dnipropetrovsk region (https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato...sk-region.html)
New physics? Because system's ground based radars will not see further than roughly ~25km, when raised to maximum elevation (~40 meters) which also is dependant on the terrain (hilly one means even less).
All it took was was knowledge that the system has ersatz level capability to be used against ground targets and that was enough for Ukraine to try to find excuses for the public as to why their own AA systems hit their own cities due to hiding them there (which opens another can of worms regarding war crimes/military targets vs practical reality of "do you want to win the war or not", but I guess this is also "my clever implication" for you and won't be understood). Since it is ballistic it is used as the reason why they haven't claimed a single one shot down, hence my laugh about the "uninterceptable super weapon of the ancients". And yes, Western delivered one do the same plus we can mention that Ukraine still hasn't admitted fault in the Poland farmer case.


And that is just one example. I want equal approach to war crimes by both sides - it isn't there. I want realistic reporting about Russia's capabilities not bullshit about shovels, washing machine chips and literally retarded "will run out in months" claims.
I want admitance that you/we/it (collective West) absolutely fucked up and lost control over military industry when even a dumb artillery shell costs 5k and there aren't enough balls in any of the goverments to decisively reverse that, not just stupid crying about Donnie saying no no. I want stop to the increasingly pushed fear mongering and propaganda that Russia will be able to attack in 2-3-4 etc. years and while claiming at the same time how they will collapse, have nothing left and have lost the war.


You did not do anything. When the answer is "But why is Ukraine shooting them in the first place" is the most common one it is clear you haven't understood at all. I asked whether there can be a discussion - the answer I mentioned shows that no, there can't be, just deflection, like mentioning Bucha when it has zero to do with Ukrainain AA failures used for specific example.

Almost half of Russia Black Sea Fleet of approximately 80 ships have been devastated in the last 2 years. 25 destroyed and 15 under repair. I would say that alone would qualify as good return on investment.

25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.

[Saradain]

Ah, Easo is actually a denier of russians targeting civilians. And then calls out others for "obvious lies"

[YUPPIE]

Second, what did it cost them to take that city?

I mean, at this point, we have to ask if the costs even matter since the Russians are just using human wave tactics and it's showing no signs of slowing down given they're obviously just recruiting minorities or tribes from the most rural parts of the world to compensate for their losses.

[Saradain]

I mean, at this point, we have to ask if the costs even matter since the Russians are just using human wave tactics and it's showing no signs of slowing down given they're obviously just recruiting minorities or tribes from the most rural parts of the world to compensate for their losses.

What minority or "tribe" has hundreds of thousands of fighting-capable people in it in Russia?

[Edge-]

My point is simple - you believe in obvious lies, specifically primarily based on two things: "Russia always lies"/"Ukraine does not lie" and blind trust in the Western officials, because you contrary to all the claims are just as susceptible to propaganda as Russians are + highly influnced by stereotypes even as you deny having them.

I don't think anyone here thinks "Ukraine does not lie" or is not above propaganda. While there's far more tolerance for it, I don't think anyone is under any illusion that Ukraine is some bastion of truth and purity and all that is good.

If you have seen anyone here posting to that effect do share, because I can't think of anyone.

Example - S-300 which supposedly are used in land strikes, cue endless accusations about Russia shelling civilians with them. Pray tell - how does radar guided missile hit that far? Most funniest claim was hit in Dnipropetrovsk region (https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato...sk-region.html)
New physics? Because system's ground based radars will not see further than roughly ~25km, when raised to maximum elevation (~40 meters) which also is dependant on the terrain (hilly one means even less).
All it took was was knowledge that the system has ersatz level capability to be used against ground targets and that was enough for Ukraine to try to find excuses for the public as to why their own AA systems hit their own cities due to hiding them there (which opens another can of worms regarding war crimes/military targets vs practical reality of "do you want to win the war or not", but I guess this is also "my clever implication" for you and won't be understood). Since it is ballistic it is used as the reason why they haven't claimed a single one shot down, hence my laugh about the "uninterceptable super weapon of the ancients". And yes, Western delivered one do the same plus we can mention that Ukraine still hasn't admitted fault in the Poland farmer case.

Ok but who here is talking about that here that you think is falling for propaganda? Or are you complaining about things happening in other parts of the internet? If so you should take that up with those folks, there. We aren't them.

And that is just one example. I want equal approach to war crimes by both sides - it isn't there. I want realistic reporting about Russia's capabilities not bullshit about shovels, washing machine chips and literally retarded "will run out in months" claims.
I want admitance that you/we/it (collective West) absolutely fucked up and lost control over military industry when even a dumb artillery shell costs 5k and there aren't enough balls in any of the goverments to decisively reverse that, not just stupid crying about Donnie saying no no. I want stop to the increasingly pushed fear mongering and propaganda that Russia will be able to attack in 2-3-4 etc. years and while claiming at the same time how they will collapse, have nothing left and have lost the war.

Honestly it reads far more like you're tilting at windmills than a reflection of the actual discussion in this thread. While folks are aware of the warnings from European leaders about the risk of possible Russian invasions in 10+ years, I don't think anyone here has realistically discussed any believable scenarios of Russia invading in the next few. Or seriously made " running out of supplies overall

What seems to be happening is that you're mixing up narratives and also having issues with people being able to update their opinions to a fluid, evolving situation instead of having them locked in stone forever. The dishwasher bit? That was reporting from 2022 after the war as sanctions hit and Russia was sourcing additional supply chains etc. - and also a bit overblown in reporting. That hasn't really been reported on in over a year (last reporting I recall was early 2023 about how it happened, but nothing about it being widespread) and I don't recall reading folks bringing it up here. Mostly because we've followed along with the news and were aware that was a short-lived development.

You did not do anything. When the answer is "But why is Ukraine shooting them in the first place" is the most common one it is clear you haven't understood at all. I asked whether there can be a discussion - the answer I mentioned shows that no, there can't be, just deflection, like mentioning Bucha when it has zero to do with Ukrainain AA failures used for specific example.

What's to discuss, though? You clearly want to soapbox on this topic, so get on your soapbox and shout into your bullhorn. Let the thread evaluate if we find your arguments compelling or not, you don't need our permission.

25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/14/europ...hnk/index.html

Seems to be a bit misrepresented, but Ukraine claims 25 ships disabled. Of course that's the claim, but I think most people would find any number offered by Ukraine far more believable than anything offered by Russia, even if it's very likely that number is higher than reality.

[Elegiac]

What's to discuss, though? You clearly want to soapbox on this topic, so get on your soapbox and shout into your bullhorn. Let the thread evaluate if we find your arguments compelling or not, you don't need our permission.

Really hit the nail on the head.

Internet pedants miss something very basic, and that is that facts by themselves are pretty meaningless. What matters is the story those facts are being used to tell, and what agenda that story services. Classic example is citing crime statistics among a minority demographic: the statistics themselves may be true, but generally when they're cited it's to create a narrative of bioessentialist criminality and further an agenda of racial discrimination.

Similarly, "Ukraine has friendly fire incidents too" or "Russia isn't actually so poor that it needs to steal washing machines" are trivially true things - but neither of them support a narrative that Russian systemic decline is being understated, which is what Easo seems to be insisting upon for whatever fucking reason.

[Rasulis]

25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.

Granted that the numbers are probably inflated with supply barges, tugboats and other non-combat ships. However, there is no denying that Russia's Black Sea fleet has been severely diminished by a country with no Navy to call its own.

Ukraine wiped out nearly a third of Russia's Black Sea Fleet without even having a real navy. These are the warships Russia lost.

[Elder Millennial]

Bucha when it has zero to do with Ukrainain AA failures used for specific example.

Why do the Ukrainians have to fire AA again? Also, after your little Foggywar song and dance, you still refuse to address the issue of Bucha, Iziyum, the mass rapes, the mass kidnappings.

25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.

The number of ships is less relevant than the tonnage and type of ships that have been sunk.

Namely, the capital ship of the Black Sea fleet and it's primary missile platform and almost every single landing ship.

[Easo]

I don't think anyone here thinks "Ukraine does not lie" or is not above propaganda..................

You may say that you do not think that people here believe Ukraine's claims, but you sure act like they are right. Please don't insult me by pretending otherwise, the cheering for aircraft shot down is a good example even when lacking any proof for all planes.

S-300 is an example. Posters here ridiculed me back in 2022 when videos of AA failing were first coming out, and "S-300 attacks" are still being used even to this day in news (14th February was the last one).

Sure, you have "moved on" from washing machines, right, that's why 3 days (hello Milley) is still being used or the claims that Russia cannot replenish this and that - all from 2022.


Basically - what do you want? What do you find acceptable? Sweet lies and propaganda to help Ukraine's war efforts - or truth? Unbiased, neutral and objective one? Do you think it is acceptable to skew it in favour of the victim - Ukraine? Or no and stick to the supposed principles of Western democracies no matter what, even if it hurts Ukraine's war effort?
Examples, again - if Russia and Ukraine puts up ATGM position in an apartment block and the opposite side blasts that house a tank will you decry warcrime for both or just Russia? If both sides use unmarked civilian cars to deliver ammo and the opposing side blows up civilian cars near frontline - will you decry both or just Russia?
Etc., etc., etc.



Yes yes, a bit, just about 3 times more ships or so, who cares about such minor mistakes...

Granted that the numbers are probably inflated with supply barges, tugboats and other non-combat ships. However, there is no denying that Russia's Black Sea fleet has been severely diminished by a country with no Navy to call its own.

Ukraine wiped out nearly a third of Russia's Black Sea Fleet without even having a real navy. These are the warships Russia lost.

A single tugboat and no barges. 1/3? You really need to check those numbers. Unless I am mistaken it's 7 ships sank - 1 cruiser, 3 landing ships, 1 sub, 1 "corvette" and 1 tug - of which 5 were built in USSR, with all that it entails. Not a single one of them a Kalibr platform. Can you get to 1/3 including those damaged? No.
Right now you have Houthis endlessly attacking ships - they also have no navy and are much less "advanced" than Ukraine. Somehow USA, UK and others cannot stop those attacks. You can argue that because warships have not been hit so far thus it doesn't count, of course.
I wonder what would happen should they get similar drone swarms (def question of time only).

I do expect more damaged or sank, considering war is likely to go for another year (which also should be a reminder that ships were sank over a period of almost 2 years, not in short succession). And, regardless - it will be decided on the ground.

Why do the Ukrainians have to fire AA again?

Jesus fucking christ you really cannot read.

[Azadina]

obvious lies

I want equal approach to war crimes by both sides .

Speaking of obvious lies, it seems those were not believed quite as readily as you claimed.

[Elegiac]

Basically - what do you want? What do you find acceptable? Sweet lies and propaganda to help Ukraine's war efforts - or truth? Unbiased, neutral and objective one? Do you think it is acceptable to skew it in favour of the victim - Ukraine? Or no and stick to the supposed principles of Western democracies no matter what, even if it hurts Ukraine's war effort?
Examples, again - if Russia and Ukraine puts up ATGM position in an apartment block and the opposite side blasts that house a tank will you decry warcrime for both or just Russia? If both sides use unmarked civilian cars to deliver ammo and the opposing side blows up civilian cars near frontline - will you decry both or just Russia?
Etc., etc., etc.

The only way someone would be stupid enough to find any level of ethical contradiction in this would be assuming that this war is a contest between rivals rather than an instance of predatory imperialism with the undertones of ethnic cleansing.

[Breccia]

Pray tell what you thought was an appropriate response.

The sudden death of Alexei Navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our Country. It is a slow, steady progression, with CROOKED, Radical Left Politicians, Prosecutors, and Judges leading us down a path to destruction. Open Borders, Rigged Elections, and Grossly Unfair Courtroom Decisions are DESTROYING AMERICA. WE ARE A NATION IN DECLINE, A FAILING NATION! MAGA2024.

-- Donald Trump

"Hey Breccia, why are you posting this three days later?"

So did Trump.

"But this is a campaign speech. This post is about Ukraine and Russia."

Trump posted this about Navalny's death. It goes here.

[Azadina]

-- Donald Trump

"Hey Breccia, why are you posting this three days later?"

So did Trump.

"But this is a campaign speech. This post is about Ukraine and Russia."

Trump posted this about Navalny's death. It goes here.

Trump is partly right. About the nation in decline and failing nation part. Just not for the reasons he thinks.