1. #36981
    Ah, Easo is actually a denier of russians targeting civilians. And then calls out others for "obvious lies"

  2. #36982
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Second, what did it cost them to take that city?
    I mean, at this point, we have to ask if the costs even matter since the Russians are just using human wave tactics and it's showing no signs of slowing down given they're obviously just recruiting minorities or tribes from the most rural parts of the world to compensate for their losses.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  3. #36983
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    I mean, at this point, we have to ask if the costs even matter since the Russians are just using human wave tactics and it's showing no signs of slowing down given they're obviously just recruiting minorities or tribes from the most rural parts of the world to compensate for their losses.
    What minority or "tribe" has hundreds of thousands of fighting-capable people in it in Russia?

  4. #36984
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    My point is simple - you believe in obvious lies, specifically primarily based on two things: "Russia always lies"/"Ukraine does not lie" and blind trust in the Western officials, because you contrary to all the claims are just as susceptible to propaganda as Russians are + highly influnced by stereotypes even as you deny having them.
    I don't think anyone here thinks "Ukraine does not lie" or is not above propaganda. While there's far more tolerance for it, I don't think anyone is under any illusion that Ukraine is some bastion of truth and purity and all that is good.

    If you have seen anyone here posting to that effect do share, because I can't think of anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Example - S-300 which supposedly are used in land strikes, cue endless accusations about Russia shelling civilians with them. Pray tell - how does radar guided missile hit that far? Most funniest claim was hit in Dnipropetrovsk region (https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato...sk-region.html)
    New physics? Because system's ground based radars will not see further than roughly ~25km, when raised to maximum elevation (~40 meters) which also is dependant on the terrain (hilly one means even less).
    All it took was was knowledge that the system has ersatz level capability to be used against ground targets and that was enough for Ukraine to try to find excuses for the public as to why their own AA systems hit their own cities due to hiding them there (which opens another can of worms regarding war crimes/military targets vs practical reality of "do you want to win the war or not", but I guess this is also "my clever implication" for you and won't be understood). Since it is ballistic it is used as the reason why they haven't claimed a single one shot down, hence my laugh about the "uninterceptable super weapon of the ancients". And yes, Western delivered one do the same plus we can mention that Ukraine still hasn't admitted fault in the Poland farmer case.
    Ok but who here is talking about that here that you think is falling for propaganda? Or are you complaining about things happening in other parts of the internet? If so you should take that up with those folks, there. We aren't them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    And that is just one example. I want equal approach to war crimes by both sides - it isn't there. I want realistic reporting about Russia's capabilities not bullshit about shovels, washing machine chips and literally retarded "will run out in months" claims.
    I want admitance that you/we/it (collective West) absolutely fucked up and lost control over military industry when even a dumb artillery shell costs 5k and there aren't enough balls in any of the goverments to decisively reverse that, not just stupid crying about Donnie saying no no. I want stop to the increasingly pushed fear mongering and propaganda that Russia will be able to attack in 2-3-4 etc. years and while claiming at the same time how they will collapse, have nothing left and have lost the war.
    Honestly it reads far more like you're tilting at windmills than a reflection of the actual discussion in this thread. While folks are aware of the warnings from European leaders about the risk of possible Russian invasions in 10+ years, I don't think anyone here has realistically discussed any believable scenarios of Russia invading in the next few. Or seriously made " running out of supplies overall

    What seems to be happening is that you're mixing up narratives and also having issues with people being able to update their opinions to a fluid, evolving situation instead of having them locked in stone forever. The dishwasher bit? That was reporting from 2022 after the war as sanctions hit and Russia was sourcing additional supply chains etc. - and also a bit overblown in reporting. That hasn't really been reported on in over a year (last reporting I recall was early 2023 about how it happened, but nothing about it being widespread) and I don't recall reading folks bringing it up here. Mostly because we've followed along with the news and were aware that was a short-lived development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    You did not do anything. When the answer is "But why is Ukraine shooting them in the first place" is the most common one it is clear you haven't understood at all. I asked whether there can be a discussion - the answer I mentioned shows that no, there can't be, just deflection, like mentioning Bucha when it has zero to do with Ukrainain AA failures used for specific example.
    What's to discuss, though? You clearly want to soapbox on this topic, so get on your soapbox and shout into your bullhorn. Let the thread evaluate if we find your arguments compelling or not, you don't need our permission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.
    https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/14/europ...hnk/index.html

    Seems to be a bit misrepresented, but Ukraine claims 25 ships disabled. Of course that's the claim, but I think most people would find any number offered by Ukraine far more believable than anything offered by Russia, even if it's very likely that number is higher than reality.

  5. #36985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What's to discuss, though? You clearly want to soapbox on this topic, so get on your soapbox and shout into your bullhorn. Let the thread evaluate if we find your arguments compelling or not, you don't need our permission.
    Really hit the nail on the head.

    Internet pedants miss something very basic, and that is that facts by themselves are pretty meaningless. What matters is the story those facts are being used to tell, and what agenda that story services. Classic example is citing crime statistics among a minority demographic: the statistics themselves may be true, but generally when they're cited it's to create a narrative of bioessentialist criminality and further an agenda of racial discrimination.

    Similarly, "Ukraine has friendly fire incidents too" or "Russia isn't actually so poor that it needs to steal washing machines" are trivially true things - but neither of them support a narrative that Russian systemic decline is being understated, which is what Easo seems to be insisting upon for whatever fucking reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  6. #36986
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.
    Granted that the numbers are probably inflated with supply barges, tugboats and other non-combat ships. However, there is no denying that Russia's Black Sea fleet has been severely diminished by a country with no Navy to call its own.

    Ukraine wiped out nearly a third of Russia's Black Sea Fleet without even having a real navy. These are the warships Russia lost.

  7. #36987
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Bucha when it has zero to do with Ukrainain AA failures used for specific example.
    Why do the Ukrainians have to fire AA again? Also, after your little Foggywar song and dance, you still refuse to address the issue of Bucha, Iziyum, the mass rapes, the mass kidnappings.


    25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.
    The number of ships is less relevant than the tonnage and type of ships that have been sunk.

    Namely, the capital ship of the Black Sea fleet and it's primary missile platform and almost every single landing ship.

  8. #36988
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I don't think anyone here thinks "Ukraine does not lie" or is not above propaganda..................
    You may say that you do not think that people here believe Ukraine's claims, but you sure act like they are right. Please don't insult me by pretending otherwise, the cheering for aircraft shot down is a good example even when lacking any proof for all planes.

    S-300 is an example. Posters here ridiculed me back in 2022 when videos of AA failing were first coming out, and "S-300 attacks" are still being used even to this day in news (14th February was the last one).

    Sure, you have "moved on" from washing machines, right, that's why 3 days (hello Milley) is still being used or the claims that Russia cannot replenish this and that - all from 2022.


    Basically - what do you want? What do you find acceptable? Sweet lies and propaganda to help Ukraine's war efforts - or truth? Unbiased, neutral and objective one? Do you think it is acceptable to skew it in favour of the victim - Ukraine? Or no and stick to the supposed principles of Western democracies no matter what, even if it hurts Ukraine's war effort?
    Examples, again - if Russia and Ukraine puts up ATGM position in an apartment block and the opposite side blasts that house a tank will you decry warcrime for both or just Russia? If both sides use unmarked civilian cars to deliver ammo and the opposing side blows up civilian cars near frontline - will you decry both or just Russia?
    Etc., etc., etc.



    Yes yes, a bit, just about 3 times more ships or so, who cares about such minor mistakes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Granted that the numbers are probably inflated with supply barges, tugboats and other non-combat ships. However, there is no denying that Russia's Black Sea fleet has been severely diminished by a country with no Navy to call its own.

    Ukraine wiped out nearly a third of Russia's Black Sea Fleet without even having a real navy. These are the warships Russia lost.
    A single tugboat and no barges. 1/3? You really need to check those numbers. Unless I am mistaken it's 7 ships sank - 1 cruiser, 3 landing ships, 1 sub, 1 "corvette" and 1 tug - of which 5 were built in USSR, with all that it entails. Not a single one of them a Kalibr platform. Can you get to 1/3 including those damaged? No.
    Right now you have Houthis endlessly attacking ships - they also have no navy and are much less "advanced" than Ukraine. Somehow USA, UK and others cannot stop those attacks. You can argue that because warships have not been hit so far thus it doesn't count, of course.
    I wonder what would happen should they get similar drone swarms (def question of time only).

    I do expect more damaged or sank, considering war is likely to go for another year (which also should be a reminder that ships were sank over a period of almost 2 years, not in short succession). And, regardless - it will be decided on the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Why do the Ukrainians have to fire AA again?
    Jesus fucking christ you really cannot read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  9. #36989
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    obvious lies

    I want equal approach to war crimes by both sides .
    Speaking of obvious lies, it seems those were not believed quite as readily as you claimed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  10. #36990
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Basically - what do you want? What do you find acceptable? Sweet lies and propaganda to help Ukraine's war efforts - or truth? Unbiased, neutral and objective one? Do you think it is acceptable to skew it in favour of the victim - Ukraine? Or no and stick to the supposed principles of Western democracies no matter what, even if it hurts Ukraine's war effort?
    Examples, again - if Russia and Ukraine puts up ATGM position in an apartment block and the opposite side blasts that house a tank will you decry warcrime for both or just Russia? If both sides use unmarked civilian cars to deliver ammo and the opposing side blows up civilian cars near frontline - will you decry both or just Russia?
    Etc., etc., etc.
    The only way someone would be stupid enough to find any level of ethical contradiction in this would be assuming that this war is a contest between rivals rather than an instance of predatory imperialism with the undertones of ethnic cleansing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  11. #36991
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    Quote Originally Posted by diller View Post
    Pray tell what you thought was an appropriate response.
    The sudden death of Alexei Navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our Country. It is a slow, steady progression, with CROOKED, Radical Left Politicians, Prosecutors, and Judges leading us down a path to destruction. Open Borders, Rigged Elections, and Grossly Unfair Courtroom Decisions are DESTROYING AMERICA. WE ARE A NATION IN DECLINE, A FAILING NATION! MAGA2024.
    -- Donald Trump

    "Hey Breccia, why are you posting this three days later?"

    So did Trump.

    "But this is a campaign speech. This post is about Ukraine and Russia."

    Trump posted this about Navalny's death. It goes here.

  12. #36992
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    -- Donald Trump

    "Hey Breccia, why are you posting this three days later?"

    So did Trump.

    "But this is a campaign speech. This post is about Ukraine and Russia."

    Trump posted this about Navalny's death. It goes here.
    Trump is partly right. About the nation in decline and failing nation part. Just not for the reasons he thinks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  13. #36993
    I see Easo is so desperate for a win they're just making up strawmen to argue against now.

  14. #36994
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    snip
    You talk about people should stop spreading lies and then proceed to lie. The Askold was a Kalibr ship as the link below shows, it used:
    https://www.kchf.ru/eng/ship/warfare...tes/askold.htm
    The ship is equipped with an eight-cell vertical launcher for Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) cruise missiles
    The link from Rasulis shows 9 ships not 7.

    Not seeing the 25 Ukraine lists. Still an impressive job for a country with no real navy. Solid red x is destroyed, light red x is damaged. Sorry for large image, imgur refuses to let me edit size for some reason, just infinitely loads.
    Last edited by Deus Mortis; 2024-02-20 at 05:28 AM.

  15. #36995
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    My point is simple - you believe in obvious lies, specifically primarily based on two things: "Russia always lies"/"Ukraine does not lie" and blind trust in the Western officials, because you contrary to all the claims are just as susceptible to propaganda as Russians are + highly influnced by stereotypes even as you deny having them.

    Example - S-300 which supposedly are used in land strikes, cue endless accusations about Russia shelling civilians with them. Pray tell - how does radar guided missile hit that far? Most funniest claim was hit in Dnipropetrovsk region (https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato...sk-region.html)
    New physics? Because system's ground based radars will not see further than roughly ~25km, when raised to maximum elevation (~40 meters) which also is dependant on the terrain (hilly one means even less).
    All it took was was knowledge that the system has ersatz level capability to be used against ground targets and that was enough for Ukraine to try to find excuses for the public as to why their own AA systems hit their own cities due to hiding them there (which opens another can of worms regarding war crimes/military targets vs practical reality of "do you want to win the war or not", but I guess this is also "my clever implication" for you and won't be understood). Since it is ballistic it is used as the reason why they haven't claimed a single one shot down, hence my laugh about the "uninterceptable super weapon of the ancients". And yes, Western delivered one do the same plus we can mention that Ukraine still hasn't admitted fault in the Poland farmer case.


    And that is just one example. I want equal approach to war crimes by both sides - it isn't there. I want realistic reporting about Russia's capabilities not bullshit about shovels, washing machine chips and literally retarded "will run out in months" claims.
    I want admitance that you/we/it (collective West) absolutely fucked up and lost control over military industry when even a dumb artillery shell costs 5k and there aren't enough balls in any of the goverments to decisively reverse that, not just stupid crying about Donnie saying no no. I want stop to the increasingly pushed fear mongering and propaganda that Russia will be able to attack in 2-3-4 etc. years and while claiming at the same time how they will collapse, have nothing left and have lost the war.


    You did not do anything. When the answer is "But why is Ukraine shooting them in the first place" is the most common one it is clear you haven't understood at all. I asked whether there can be a discussion - the answer I mentioned shows that no, there can't be, just deflection, like mentioning Bucha when it has zero to do with Ukrainain AA failures used for specific example.



    25 ships? Where the f... are you getting those numbers from? Please don't tell me you counted stuff like Raptors and Sernas as ships.
    But why don't you answer why Ukraine is using AA missiles?
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  16. #36996
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Sure, you have "moved on" from washing machines, right, that's why 3 days (hello Milley) is still being used or the claims that Russia cannot replenish this and that - all from 2022.
    Easo, are you talking about people in the thread or people beyond the thread? We can't control what a former general says my dude, I thought we were talking about folks in this thread but your post is all about other stuff.

    Will you answer why is Ukraine firing AA missiles over their territory, yet? Or do we have a few more hurdles to clear before you'll entertain that question?

  17. #36997
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post

    Sure, you have "moved on" from washing machines, right, that's why 3 days (hello Milley) is still being used or the claims that Russia cannot replenish this and that - all from 2022.
    https://twitter.com/JurgenPanzer1/st...zsd8gJQiw&s=19

    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  18. #36998
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    What minority or "tribe" has hundreds of thousands of fighting-capable people in it in Russia?
    No single one does except maybe Tatars, but various minorities add up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic...ia#1989_-_2021

  19. #36999
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    No single one does except maybe Tatars, but various minorities add up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic...ia#1989_-_2021
    And Yuppie seems to think Russia is going to rely on only minorities at this rate of meat wave tactics. As if they'd never ever require pressganging the "real russians" as they put it.

  20. #37000
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    And Yuppie seems to think Russia is going to rely on only minorities at this rate of meat wave tactics. As if they'd never ever require pressganging the "real russians" as they put it.
    Oh, minorities alone will not be sufficient if Ukraine is as successful in attrition as they have been. But Russia still seems to be eager to feed them into the meatgrinder first. And since Ukraine keeping it up is contingent of continued Western aid, they might just suffice. Also 7 in the top 15 of that list are groups from the Caucasus, historically troublesome for Russia (think Chechens).

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