Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Mayhem]

You won't need to start learning Russian because deterrence works both ways.

It's one thing if Russia chews on Ukraine, it's a whole another ballpark if it chews on an actual NATO member, provided NATO fulfills its obligations.

Which is pretty much the calculation.

No, deterrence doesn't work both ways if only one is believed to be willing to destroy everything including themselves.

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No there isn't. Death s essentially no longer existing. Unless you're dumb enough to believe in an afterlife. Shit like the punishment of prometheus is better than that.

You have never experienced excruciating pain have you? From personal experience, I could show you at least one thing that is worse than death and would probably lead you to starve yourself.

[Nymrohd]

Also, I would not write off Central Asian ex-Soviet republics as such a hard lock for Russia. There is a discontent there about Russian role in the region and even some surprising official snubs going through the cracks. Not outright "rebellion", but it's not completely blue skies for Russia there.

I'd say China–Kazakhstan relations should be considered just as threatening to Russia's supposed control of its periphery to EU/US inroads in Ukraine. Largest Central Asian economy and a resource giant on its own.

[Iphie]

Long queue's reported for Navalny's funeral, in defiance of the Kremlin.

BBC

The Guardian

[Gaidax]

No, deterrence doesn't work both ways if only one is believed to be willing to destroy everything including themselves.

While I do promote caution, it's also important to not just be baited for free.

Nukes are a very very remote scenario at the moment, it's nowhere near Cuban Crisis where it becomes a distinct possibility.

Russia is not about to suicide at this point.

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I'd say China–Kazakhstan relations should be considered just as threatening to Russia's supposed control of its periphery to EU/US inroads in Ukraine. Largest Central Asian economy and a resource giant on its own.

China practically owns a chunk of Russia already and I am sure Putin is painfully aware of that.

I bet there is a lot of head grabbing going in Kremlin about how to balance this increasingly toxic and disproportionate relationship.

[unfilteredJW]

No there isn't. Death s essentially no longer existing. Unless you're dumb enough to believe in an afterlife. Shit like the punishment of prometheus is better than that.

I'm sure all the foreign orphans being forced to blow business men on sex tours are super happy about your views.

[Gabriel]

No there isn't. Death s essentially no longer existing. Unless you're dumb enough to believe in an afterlife. Shit like the punishment of prometheus is better than that.

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Or 4) we know they'll follow the orders because if we knew or even thought no one would follow through with the nuclear threat the west would have marched to the soviet border during Hungary or Czech uprisings in the cold War.

If there is nothing after death then you won't be conscious to notice it.

Being raped in a cellar for 30 years on the other hand, might feel a bit uncomfortable.

[Xyonai]

Wasn’t even an MBT but a mine clearing version based off the M1 chassis.

I didn't even catch that part in all this, that makes the smug cheering even more hilarious.

[Wilian]

It's a simple risk management.

It's like what the person above said - are you really going to risk even a small chance of this coming true over sending soldiers to Ukraine?

It's like Cuban Missile Crisis. Nobody wants to find themselves in this kind of game of chicken, not even Russia.

One mistake and we're all done.

But this is not risk management. This is a situation of not putting tough against tough like in the Cuban Missile Crisis. This is essentially west giving a blank check for Russia to do as they please (so far) as far as their military conduct is concerned. Russia only has to mutter out nuclear weapons and with a stance like this you're willing to give them Georgia, Moldova and any ex-Soviet colony to do as they please with. There is a point where that has to be stopped and that moment was in 2014 when Russia occupied Crimea. Then it was 2022 when Russia escalated their war into all-out invasion. Hell, it was the half a year prior to that when everyone already knew Russia was going to attack.

Had NATO placed troops into Ukraine, Russia would've backed out. They'd not have used nukes, just like they've not used in any of their tenfold and over red-line situations they threatened nukes with. This was never about existential existance to Russia, it was about their right to conquer their neighbours with their imperialistic goals in mind and to recapture lost colonies. And west collectively gave blank check over that and keep doing so because they whisper "nuclear".

[KrayZ33]

About Putin scaring people with nuclear strikes:

It's basically proof that this talk only works in one direction.

Putin: "We will nuke you"
"Everyone" in the West: "Oh no, that's no not worth it, let him have it (appeasement)!"

EU country: "We will nuke Russia if they don't stop"
"Everyone" in West: "Oh no, don't do it, that will be the end of us all, you are crazy."

In both cases, Russia is the winner, because they don't have free thinkers and are completely controlled. They are even stupid enough and in support of nuclear strikes because they aren't educated enough to think about consequences. The West is and they are scared...
And I wish my english skills were better and I could describe this issue in a better way, but the truth is in the fact that if one of "our" leaders would make threats like Putin did (using nuclear weapons for anyone daring to "oppose" the country - we aren't even talking about invading it or anything like that), he would've been removed from any leading position in politics already.
The fact that nothing happens in Russia tells you how far they're already up on the fascist ladder - and a country like that is currently invading a neighbouring nation in the middle of europe.

Either way, the best way to counteract this is to not give a damn about these threats, believe it or not. It's best to just ignore it and act if nuclear threats don't exist unless you actually go for the throat.


the "appeasement strategy" the west uses, and keeps going back to, has failed when Hitler became a thing, and it will fail with Putin. He will get what he wants, and he will not stop. Just like Hitler didn't stop after he got what he wanted when his threats were still able to yield results.
So while "boots on the ground" is just politicians talking out of their asses right now, it would actually be the correct move to simply end it. The next best move is to stop this by showing strength and support ukraine with *everything* material-related and hoping that Putin dies in 1-2 decades and someone less crazy takes the lead.

Yes, it's easy for me to write this out of the safety of my home - while not being a soldier and while not having served (well, I wanted to, but I wasn't allowed due to health issues).... but it's pointless to play politics with a madman, you are just going to lose. As silly as it sounds, showing the other cheek to a bully on a quest solves nothing and will only create more problems.
If Putin decides to attack the Baltics, will we also say "Meh, Nuclear war for 6 million people isn't worth it, after all, we didn't even do it for 45m in Ukraine"? The documents about defensive alliances / the NATO are all going to be useless as well if we care for a second about nuclear retaliation just because we want to support people who are clearly morally in the right and the *victims* of aggression - so might as well stop it here right now...


We can't even be bothered to send weapons and ressources to a country that is invaded by the "enemy" and reason the NATO exists (lets not fool ourselves here, NATO exist against the threat of what is called "Russia" right now.)

[Wilian]

Returning to the topic of sending troops into Ukraine, word on the street at the moment is that Macron plans to convene all French political parties March 7 about the matter of sending boots on the ground. We'll see what comes out of that if that even happens soon.

[Edge-]

Returning to the topic of sending troops into Ukraine, word on the street at the moment is that Macron plans to convene all French political parties March 7 about the matter of sending boots on the ground. We'll see what comes out of that if that even happens soon.

Huh, that'd sure be a significant change, and I wonder how Russia might respond to the possibility. Especially given that I'm sure many people will take France unilaterally deciding to commit troops (potentially) as a NATO action given that France is a member. Conveniently ignoring that NATO members can take military actions outside of the constraints of their NATO membership and all.

[KrayZ33]

Especially given that I'm sure many people will take France unilaterally deciding to commit troops (potentially) as a NATO action given that France is a member..

I agree, and the fact that people like that exist makes me angry.
It's not even going to be just the "people" saying that, political parties such as the AFD in Germany will, of course, also use this to spread even more discontent and disinformation in the brains of the already mentally challenged.

[Gorsameth]

Returning to the topic of sending troops into Ukraine, word on the street at the moment is that Macron plans to convene all French political parties March 7 about the matter of sending boots on the ground. We'll see what comes out of that if that even happens soon.

Makes you wonder what happened to change his mind so drastically.

For now I will remain very sceptical about anyone being eager to put their soldiers into this war voluntarily rather then arming Ukraine and not having to deal with body bags coming home.

[Wilian]

Makes you wonder what happened to change his mind so drastically.

For now I will remain very sceptical about anyone being eager to put their soldiers into this war voluntarily rather then arming Ukraine and not having to deal with body bags coming home.

Well he has always been very strongly supportive of Ukraine in words, but not in practice. It'll be interesting to see if this amounts to anything or if it's just more talk.

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I agree, and the fact that people like that exist makes me angry.
It's not even going to be just the "people" saying that, political parties such as the AFD in Germany will, of course, also use this to spread even more discontent and disinformation in the brains of the already mentally challenged.

This annoys me a lot as well. There have been relatively few NATO operations compared to operations that include some NATO members yet those all get used as examples of NATO over-reach. It's annoying AF.

[Corvus]

One theory I have seen put forward about France's more active role is that it is a result of Russia's Afrika Korp (seriously just break out the swastikas already) and their activities in French speaking west Africa, which France sees as its sphere of influence. Russia has been attacking French interests and the French have decided enough is enough.

[Deus Mortis]

You have never experienced excruciating pain have you? From personal experience, I could show you at least one thing that is worse than death and would probably lead you to starve yourself.

Yeah I have a feeling some people don't actually understand how painful some things can be. I suffer from random gallbladder attacks that range from anywhere from 6-10 on my personal pain scale. With some being so bad that I literally can't speak. Usually it will only last 10-20 minutes(feels like hours). I can't imagine other forums of torture that people cant inflict that can last indefinitely. If I would have to suffer the pain from the gallbladder attacks day after day for hours on end, I would much prefer death.

[Benggaul]

Yeah I have a feeling some people don't actually understand how painful some things can be. I suffer from random gallbladder attacks that range from anywhere from 6-10 on my personal pain scale. With some being so bad that I literally can't speak. Usually it will only last 10-20 minutes(feels like hours). I can't imagine other forums of torture that people cant inflict that can last indefinitely. If I would have to suffer the pain from the gallbladder attacks day after day for hours on end, I would much prefer death.

This has gone pretty far off-topic but yeah, it was a dumb statement. There's a reason people fight for the right to use euthanasia and DNRs. And it's not just pain, though that's one of the big ones. A 29 year old woman here in the Netherlands was recently finally granted her request for euthanasia after suffering extreme, untreatable psychiatric suffering for most of her life. If your life is 24/7 mental torture with no hope of improvement it should come as no surprise that death is a welcome alternative.

And to bring this a bit more on topic, being willing to give up your life because it will benefit others--such as soldiers holding off overwhelming invaders to protect their home and loved ones--should also not be sneered at. "Life at all costs" is every bit as repressive and ignorant an argument as whatever ones the various religions put forward.

[Gaidax]

People just took all this death shit vastly out of proportion.

The original comparison if I'm correct was that "learning Russian" is preferable to nuclear apocalypse.

I understand the context of "learning Russian" there, but ultimately the point is that half the Europe was "learning Russian" for a good several decades and somehow things turned out fine in the end and not something death was preferable to.

This is also how a good billion of people survive - hope for a better future alongside the fact that death is scary and them having responsibilities.

[Iphie]

Somebody had fun... (I'm sure it's gone by now.)

[Kokolums]

Returning to the topic of sending troops into Ukraine, word on the street at the moment is that Macron plans to convene all French political parties March 7 about the matter of sending boots on the ground. We'll see what comes out of that if that even happens soon.

Well when the us announced they were putting nukes in the Uk, russua announced they were putting nukes in space. If Nato puts boots on the ground in Ukraine then be prepared for russia to respond by perhaps putting a large army in cuba or something of that sort.

But russia won't allow nato to just assemble an army in Ukraine without consequences