Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Odinfrost]

On the state of affairs, we've come quite a long way from the narrative Ukraine is defeating Russia to Zelenksy begging for aid and expressing US support is a necessity or they would just lose otherwise.

Huh. That's weird. How strange that when they were getting the supplies they needed, they could not only hold the line, but push the russians back, and now that they don't get what they need, they can't.
Ain't that a strange coinkidink?!

[Benggaul]

Huh. That's weird. How strange that when they were getting the supplies they needed, they could not only hold the line, but push the russians back, and now that they don't get what they need, they can't.
Ain't that a strange coinkidink?!

I mean it's what was said through the entirety of the war to date so Yuppie is, as per usual, contributing nothing of value.

[TrueNeutral]

And yes, Ukraine is having troop shortages because it has to reform its mobilization system, it's also harder to convince people to sign up if you can't fucking guarantee that you can provide them with equipment.

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukra...ing-the-draft/

650k Ukrainian men of fighting age have fled the country because they don't want to die. How are you going to convince them to return from where they currently are in safety to the meatgrinder? No amount of aid is going to convince any sane human being to go to the meatgrinder. It's easy to talk about risking your life to fight in a war from the comfort of your home when you haven't fought one. Let me ask you something: If the West decides to provide them with the top-tier equipment, will you volunteer? Instead of asking others to fight a war that you want to continue, why don't you enlist in Ukraine's International Legion? I'm very sure the Ukrainian army is in dire need of men with fighting spirit like you.

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On the state of affairs, we've come quite a long way from the narrative Ukraine is defeating Russia to Zelenksy begging for aid and expressing US support is a necessity or they would just lose otherwise.

Really? Last I heard Russia is running out of weapons and ammunition and Ukraine is winning the war! They also have the Ghost of Kiev!

[DarkTZeratul]

Instead of asking others to fight a war that you want to continue...

You keep acting like we're forcing Ukraine to fight this war, as though they don't actually want to defend themselves from being conquered by Russia but golly gee, they just have no choice in the matter. We've reminded you of this fact so many times that you have to be deliberately ignoring this fact because it's inconvenient for Russia's inane proxy war narrative that a sovereign nature would object to having its sovereignty violated and ask for help making the violators fuck off. I notice you've never once suggested that Russia stop fighting and end this war, despite being the only party able to unilaterally do so.

[Specialka]

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukra...ing-the-draft/

650k Ukrainian men of fighting age have fled the country because they don't want to die. How are you going to convince them to return from where they currently are in safety to the meatgrinder? No amount of aid is going to convince any sane human being to go to the meatgrinder. It's easy to talk about risking your life to fight in a war from the comfort of your home when you haven't fought one. Let me ask you something: If the West decides to provide them with the top-tier equipment, will you volunteer? Instead of asking others to fight a war that you want to continue, why don't you enlist in Ukraine's International Legion? I'm very sure the Ukrainian army is in dire need of men with fighting spirit like you.

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Really? Last I heard Russia is running out of weapons and ammunition and Ukraine is winning the war! They also have the Ghost of Kiev!

I think most people agree to support Ukraine as long as they are willing to fight for their own sake. No one is forcing them.

[TrueNeutral]

You keep acting like we're forcing Ukraine to fight this war, as though they don't actually want to defend themselves from being conquered by Russia but golly gee, they just have no choice in the matter. We've reminded you of this fact so many times that you have to be deliberately ignoring this fact because it's inconvenient for Russia's inane proxy war narrative that a sovereign nature would object to having its sovereignty violated and ask for help making the violators fuck off. I notice you've never once suggested that Russia stop fighting and end this war, despite being the only party able to unilaterally do so.

Renowned international relations scholar from the US John Mearsheimer saw this war coming when the west aggressively expanded NATO, despite Russia not being a threat back then. In a way, the west (NOT Ukraine, I repeat, Ukraine IS the victim here) provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. This war could have been avoided if the west just stopped expanding NATO and declared that Ukraine will never ever be part of NATO, but they didn't, they instead chose to FAAFO and look at what happened. Now they're acting surprised at Russia's invasion, as though Russia decided to invade Ukraine just because one fine day Putin wanted to restore the Russian Empire?



Yes, Russia could unilaterally stop the fighting, but why would they? They have their concerns that need to be addressed, something which the West refuses to do, and instead, they chose to prolong this proxy war by encouraging poor Ukrainians to continue fighting.

Whether you like it or not, the war is going to end on the negotiating table with concessions being made. It is just a matter of when will the West finally start telling the Ukrainians "Hey, this war is going nowhere, if you do not negotiate now, we will stop aiding you".


Infracted.

[zorkuus]

No one here is impressed by your shit "but my wife forced me to hit her" analogy.

[Corvus]

Ah, the debunked theories once again get a show.

[alach]

Counterpoint!

EU countries seal €5-billion deal on military aid to Ukraine after weeks of disagreements
European Union countries reached on Wednesday evening a hard-fought deal to boost and revamp military assistance to Ukraine.

The agreement struck by ambassadors in Brussels will inject an additional €5 billion into the European Peace Facility (EPF) until the end of the year, which will come on top of the €6.1 billion committed since early 2022.

The EPF gained prominence in the immediate aftermath of Russia's war as member states rushed to provide Kyiv with the military equipment kept in their national stocks.

The facility partially reimburses the costs of these donations, allowing all countries, from the largest to the smallest, to chip in and help out. It is an "off-budget" scheme because the EU's coffers cannot finance expenditure with military implications.

Deal ‼️ EU Ambassadors agreed in principle on a reform of the European Peace Facility, to support Ukraine with €5 billion budget for 2024.

The EU remains determined to provide lasting support to UA & ensure that the country gets the military equipment it needs to defend itself.

Sounds like they are there for the long haul.
Also, I would like to point out, to many people, myself included, russia has already lost this war. The 3 day special operation has been a colossal failure. Russias economy and resources are being funneled into a war machine that isnt sustainable. They look weak and foolish to most of the world and their intelligence service is so distracted they enable domestic terrorism. Russia wasn't exactly in a great posistion before they decided to invade a foriegn country to steal their oil and gas, I sure don't think they are better off 2 years in.
This will end with Ukraine being a part of Nato, and the EU.
Russia has already lost, they are the ones just dragging this out.

[KrayZ33]

Just pointing it out for the Putin shills again.

Russia is the agressor.
Russia is the one responsible for the war and the death of *everyone* involved in this conflict.

It doesn't matter whether Russia wins or loses, they are at fault, they are the ones that should be shunned and excluded from world politics by every single western nation that still values liberty, freedom and it's people.

These are the facts that can't be disputed and haven't been disputed in any way whatsoever so far.



Just saying/repeating the points because it seems some less fortunate people that aren't blessed with a functioning brain seem to have some weird understanding of the situation. So don't feel alarmed if you are asking yourself: "Why is he stating the obvious?" - You are not the recipient this message is meant for.

Another point I want to keep in everyones mind:

Ukraine is not some vassal state of anyone. They can decide who their allies are, with whom they want to play the game of politics with and what values they want to pursue.
A neighbouring country doesn't get to invade another country preemptively because of that, even if that means that weapons and military is placed alongside it's borders.
If we would act like that, Russia should've been invaded a thousand times already.

[Dontrike]

They have their concerns that need to be addressed,

What concerns were that? NATO? If they were worried about it why force other countries to join it? What "concerns" does Putin have with him being a murderer?

[Jessicka]

Counterpoint!



Sounds like they are there for the long haul.
Also, I would like to point out, to many people, myself included, russia has already lost this war. The 3 day special operation has been a colossal failure. Russias economy and resources are being funneled into a war machine that isnt sustainable. They look weak and foolish to most of the world and their intelligence service is so distracted they enable domestic terrorism. Russia wasn't exactly in a great posistion before they decided to invade a foriegn country to steal their oil and gas, I sure don't think they are better off 2 years in.
This will end with Ukraine being a part of Nato, and the EU.
Russia has already lost, they are the ones just dragging this out.

Not to mention that Russia is materially militarily weaker having lost significant assets, some of which were irreplaceable.

[Specialka]

Just pointing it out for the Putin shills again.

Russia is the agressor.
Russia is the one responsible for the war and the death of *everyone* involved in this conflict.

It doesn't matter whether Russia wins or loses, they are at fault, they are the ones that should be shunned and excluded from world politics by every single western nation that still values liberty, freedom and it's people.

These are the facts that can't be disputed and haven't been disputed in any way whatsoever so far.



Just saying/repeating the points because it seems some less fortunate people that aren't blessed with a functioning brain seem to have some weird understanding of the situation. So don't feel alarmed if you are asking yourself: "Why is he stating the obvious?" - You are not the recipient this message is meant for.

Another point I want to keep in everyones mind:

Ukraine is not some vassal state of anyone. They can decide who their allies are, with whom they want to play the game of politics with and what values they want to pursue.
A neighbouring country doesn't get to invade another country preemptively because of that, even if that means that weapons and military is placed alongside it's borders.
If we would act like that, Russia should've been invaded a thousand times already.

So should Azerbaïdjan be treated as well like that for what they did to Armenia ?

[KrayZ33]

So should Azerbaïdjan be treated as well like that for what they did to Armenia ?

Maybe?
I don't know enough about that specific conflict - a conflict that started way before most people in this forum were born or when they were but a toddler.
Not even sure which specific event you are refering to.

Same rules apply to everyone, even the US.
What's your point?

[Specialka]

Maybe?
I don't know enough about that specific conflict - a conflict that started way before most people in this forum were born or when they were but a toddler.
Not even sure which specific event you are refering to.

Same rules apply to everyone, even the US.
What's your point?

And did it happen to the US ? Short and long answer, it should have happen but it did not. Ergo, it won't happen here either.

[KrayZ33]

And did it happen to the US ? Short and long answer, it should have happen but it did not. Ergo, it won't happen here either.

Why do you answer your own questions, questions no one asked for and are completely irrelevant?
I just made a statement. Not sure why you need to deflect to the US, but the US should be punished everytime they fuck up stuff just like RU should be punished everytime they fuck up stuff.

However, no matter how much you dislike that, the situation between Armenia and Azerbaidjan and their ethnic cleansing roulette seemingly remains completely different from what happened in Ukraine and why it happened. (in before claims that Russians were genocided in Ukraine?)
So I still wonder what your point is.

[Specialka]

Why do you answer your own questions?
I just made a statement. Not sure why you need to deflect to the US, but the US should be punished everytime they fuck up stuff just like RU should be punished everytime they fuck up stuff.

However, no matter how much you dislike that, the situation between Armenia and Azerbaidjan and their ethnic cleansing roulette remains completely different from what happened in Ukraine and why it happened.
So I still wonder what your point is.

That you should not waste breath or waste time typing about things that won't happen.

[Wilian]

So should Azerbaïdjan be treated as well like that for what they did to Armenia ?

Azerbaijan should be confronted over the various human right violations and ethnic cleansing yes in Mountain-Karabh region; however their invasion of the region has no resemblance with Russian invasion of Ukraine.

[KrayZ33]

That you should not waste breath or waste time typing about things that won't happen.

Uhm? In a rather significant way it already happens to Russia compared to the influence it had before the conflict.
So it kinda already did happen?

Or are you refering to your deflection you created that I had to answer because you were asking about it?


And saying something about stuff that should happen, but don't happen, doesn't mean I'm wasting my breath.
I'm, again, making a statement.
The West should stop all interaction except for maybe a diplomatic minimum with Russia and show a backbone, even if it means that I'll have to accept losing out on something that benefits me.
Even if it doesn't happen, that's what I *want* to happen. If enough people want it, it will happen.

That's what it means to live in a democratic country. If I'm in the minority I have to accept my loss, but saying I'm wasting my breath just shows that you don't understand what I'm talking about, or rather, that you prefer tyranny over integrity.

Tyvm.

[Flarelaine]

Azerbaijan should absolutely answer for their crimes. However, despite all the grandstanding and sternly worded proclamations, most governments are reluctant to assault another country over civil rights. And the fact that the Armenian enclave was Azerbaijan's sovereign territory all along gives them cover from repercussions.