Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Specialka]

Uhm? In a rather significant way it already happens to Russia compared to the influence it had before the conflict.
So it kinda already did happen?

Or are you refering to your deflection you created that I had to answer because you were asking about it?


And saying something about stuff that should happen, but don't happen, doesn't mean I'm wasting my breath.
I'm, again, making a statement.
The West should stop all interaction except for maybe a diplomatic minimum with Russia and show a backbone, even if it means that I'll have to accept losing out on something that benefits me.
Even if it doesn't happen, that's what I *want* to happen. If enough people want it, it will happen.

That's what it means to live in a democratic country. If I'm in the minority I have to accept my loss, but saying I'm wasting my breath just shows that you don't understand what I'm talking about, or rather, that you prefer tyranny over integrity.

Tyvm.

Thank you for deciding for me what I prefer and you dare talk about tyranny

My point is that according to what you said, the "West" should basically stop talking and shun half the globe (more or less) and even within the "West" we should shun some country like the US. Do you see that as a reasonable position ?

[diller]

Renowned international relations scholar,,,,

https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/03/09...john-anderson/

[Edge-]

Yes, Russia could unilaterally stop the fighting, but why would they? They have their concerns that need to be addressed, something which the West refuses to do, and instead, they chose to prolong this proxy war by encouraging poor Ukrainians to continue fighting.

I thought this was a special operatoin to denazify Ukraine?

Why is Russia invading Ukraine if they have concerns with "the west"? Why not deal with "the west" directly?

What are these concerns that required them to invade Ukraine?

[DarkTZeratul]

Yes, Russia could unilaterally stop the fighting, but why would they?

Yes, that guy could stop beating his wife, but why would he? Better for everyone if she apologizes that his dinner was cold and he pinky promises not to hit her again.

Yes, Russia could unilaterally stop the fighting, but why would they? They have their concerns that need to be addressed, something which the West refuses to do, and instead, they chose to prolong this proxy war by encouraging poor Ukrainians to continue fighting.

Fuck those concerns. Even if they were real (and they're not, they're an entirely post-hoc justification for annexing Ukraine because Putin wants to restore the USSR), Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has absolutely no right to tell them what alliances they can and can't make, especially at gunpoint. Period.

[Sunseeker]

Lol "their concerns" what the actual fuck. That secret agent Nazi Commies are running the Ukraine and extermination and conquest are the, final solution? That the West is purposefully or secretly or unknowingly backing secret Nazis?

And "encouraging them to fight back" lolwut, against an armed oppressor whose war shows no signs of giving a shit about the people?

Where are the fucking mods in this thread?

[zealo]

Lol "their concerns" what the actual fuck. That secret agent Nazi Commies are running the Ukraine and extermination and conquest are the, final solution? That the West is purposefully or secretly or unknowingly backing secret Nazis?

And "encouraging them to fight back" lolwut, against an armed oppressor whose war shows no signs of giving a shit about the people?

Where are the fucking mods in this thread?

Id say absent, but its probably better described as this whole forum having an absolutely nonsensical moderation policy.

Posters absolutely everyone can see from a mile away that they aren’t posting in good faith to put it mildly are not being handed permanent bans, because what they post ”could be their personal belief” or some tripe along that same line.

[Slirith]

Id say absent, but its probably better described as this whole forum having an absolutely nonsensical moderation policy.

Posters absolutely everyone can see from a mile away that they aren’t posting in good faith to put it mildly are not being handed permanent bans, because what they post ”could be their personal belief” or some tripe along that same line.

Man, if us normal posters posted about our "personal beliefs" we'd be banned within the day.

[Huehuecoyotl]

650k Ukrainian men of fighting age have fled the country because they don't want to die.

How many Russians fled their country for same reason, comrade? How many more now wish they had?

[KrayZ33]

Thank you for deciding for me what I prefer and you dare talk about tyranny

My point is that according to what you said, the "West" should basically stop talking and shun half the globe (more or less) and even within the "West" we should shun some country like the US. Do you see that as a reasonable position ?

How is stating what you prefer due to reasonable assumption the same a deciding it for you, lol.
You make certain statements and have certain opinions, you are what you do and your mind is what you speak.
Especially funny that this is coming from you, who just tried to silence that opinion saying "I'm just wasting my breath", lmao.

And yes, of course I see this as a reasonable position. Every country that does shit like that has to be condemned until they change their behavior and paid their dues from past mistakes.
It doesn't mean they have to stay like that forever? Germany changed, Russia can too.
Why the heck wouldn't that be a reasonable position.

It's embolded in every aspect of just about every meaningful organisation in the west.
It's just natural to extend these *objectively good things* outside of said organisations (such as the EU, article 2 for example) and help them to become a partner in said endeavour. The organisations already sanction countries that don't abide by these rules/ if they stand in conflict of said rules and if they are a member - until they make amends and change.
It's also very reasonable to expect said members and my country that's part and most other organisations with the same beliefs, to stay by these principles and use diplomatic and economic preassure against countries that are either a threat, or are not upholding said principles of objective truth (human rights etc.) and "punish" them. We can't force anyone, but we sure as hell don't have to deal with them until they change their ways.


The fact that it isn't happening is already sad enough, so again, I'm advocating for that to change, especially the mindset of having "economic benifits" over morals. It's not what the politicians officially signed up for and not what the people want, as you could just ask about everyone what they think about the exploitation of the "X and Y" and all of them will say that they deserve the same securities we enjoy.
It's a matter of upholding these morals and values when you are about to take a hit yourself.
Any other method and indecisive behaviour will just lead to what you experience now in the Ukraine. Which is just one of many examples.

And I really don't care about how much people think this sounds like me being a moralizer, I would and I do abide by these principles and grew up with them, I enjoyed them, I have friends that benefited from them and there is nothing wrong with them, without a doubt.

[Specialka]

How is stating what you prefer due to reasonable assumption the same a deciding it for you, lol.
You make certain statements and have certain opinions, you are what you do and your mind is what you speak.
Especially funny that this is coming from you, who just tried to silence that opinion saying "I'm just wasting my breath", lmao.

And yes, of course I see this as a reasonable position. Every country that does shit like that has to be condemned until they change their behavior and paid their dues from past mistakes.
It doesn't mean they have to stay like that forever? Germany changed, Russia can too.
Why the heck wouldn't that be a reasonable position.

It's embolded in every aspect of just about every meaningful organisation in the west.
It's just natural to extend these *objectively good things* outside of said organisations (such as the EU, article 2 for example) and help them to become a partner in said endeavour. The organisations already sanction countries that don't abide by these rules/ if they stand in conflict of said rules and if they are a member - until they make amends and change.
It's also very reasonable to expect said members and my country that's part and most other organisations with the same beliefs, to stay by these principles and use diplomatic and economic preassure against countries that are either a threat, or are not upholding said principles of objective truth (human rights etc.) and "punish" them. We can't force anyone, but we sure as hell don't have to deal with them until they change their ways.


The fact that it isn't happening is already sad enough, so again, I'm advocating for that to change, especially the mindset of having "economic benifits" over morals. It's not what the politicians officially signed up for and not what the people want, as you could just ask about everyone what they think about the exploitation of the "X and Y" and all of them will say that they deserve the same securities we enjoy.
It's a matter of upholding these morals and values when you are about to take a hit yourself.
Any other method and indecisive behaviour will just lead to what you experience now in the Ukraine. Which is just one of many examples.

And I really don't care about how much people think this sounds like me being a moralizer, I would and I do abide by these principles and grew up with them, I enjoyed them, I have friends that benefited from them and there is nothing wrong with them, without a doubt.

I guess then we should invade the US next to make them change as well as they are one of the world biggest threat.

[KrayZ33]

I guess then we should invade the US next to make them change as well as they are one of the world biggest threat.

Except I never said anything about invading. Way to just make stuff up that has literally nothing to do with what I just said, but what did I expect...

[Specialka]

Except I never said anything about invading. Way to just make stuff up that has literally nothing to do with what I just said, but what did I expect...

But Germany changed after being militarily defeated, conquered and occupied for several years. So your argument kinda falls flat unless you can make that happen for Russia.

[Corvus]

How many Russians fled their country for same reason, comrade? How many more now wish they had?

At least a million.

A large chunk of those Ukrainians were under 30, and so couldn't be mobilised anyway.

[Elegiac]

Lol "their concerns" what the actual fuck. That secret agent Nazi Commies are running the Ukraine and extermination and conquest are the, final solution? That the West is purposefully or secretly or unknowingly backing secret Nazis?

And "encouraging them to fight back" lolwut, against an armed oppressor whose war shows no signs of giving a shit about the people?

Where are the fucking mods in this thread?

Busy making the Nuremberg Defense for IDF soldiers in the Israel vs Palestine thread. Duh.

[KrayZ33]

But Germany changed after being militarily defeated, conquered and occupied for several years. So your argument kinda falls flat unless you can make that happen for Russia.

The argument is that the minds of people can change (and thus Russia doesn't have to be "excluded" for eternity), not that it has to be done through military force.

Or are you suggesting that Russia will be forever be lead and supported by degenerates?

[Iphie]

Or are you suggesting that Russia will be forever lead and supported by degenerates?

That seems to be the case, mostly. They may have had a moment in the 19th century when they had a chance to change but they didn't and Lenin was the result, after that nothing ever seems to change there.

Let's not forget that St. Peterburg and Moscow are very unrealistic cities when it comes to the average russian standard of living.

[Zaydin]

That seems to be the case, mostly. They may have had a moment in the 19th century when they had a chance to change but they didn't and Lenin was the result, after that nothing ever seems to change there.

Let's not forget that St. Peterburg and Moscow are very unrealistic cities when it comes to the average russian standard of living.

It feels sometimes like a key part of Russian identity is an utter inability for self-determination. They went from monarchist Tsarist Russia, the authorarian Soviet Union, to a brief flirtation with actual democracy in the 90s before letting Putin take over after that.

It feels like Russians need authoritarian despots to tell them how to live and what to think.

[Specialka]

The argument is that the minds of people can change (and thus Russia doesn't have to be "excluded" for eternity), not that it has to be done through military force.

Or are you suggesting that Russia will be forever be lead and supported by degenerates?

Do you see any internal sign that it would not be the case ? I do not.

- - - Updated - - -

It feels sometimes like a key part of Russian identity is an utter inability for self-determination. They went from monarchist Tsarist Russia, the authorarian Soviet Union, to a brief flirtation with actual democracy in the 90s before letting Putin take over after that.

It feels like Russians need authoritarian despots to tell them how to live and what to think.

Like they ever knew something else ? They always were under dictatorship so they only knew that. The only time when they did not where the Elsin period after the end of the USSR, it was a time where the western influence "rushed" inside Russia but it mostly affected Moscow and St Petersbourg anyway.

[Jessicka]

It feels sometimes like a key part of Russian identity is an utter inability for self-determination. They went from monarchist Tsarist Russia, the authorarian Soviet Union, to a brief flirtation with actual democracy in the 90s before letting Putin take over after that.

It feels like Russians need authoritarian despots to tell them how to live and what to think.

In fairness, their attempts at democracy were hopelessly undermined by western powers putting people like Putin in positions of authority so we could rob the state of its natural resources and in so doing created the oligarchy that took over.

The same dumbshit argument about countries not wanting democracy could be made of any country until about 200 years ago, meanwhile a lot longstanding stable democracies have had flirtations with, or are weirdly on a trajectory to embracing authoritarianism.

[Specialka]

In fairness, their attempts at democracy were hopelessly undermined by western powers putting people like Putin in positions of authority so we could rob the state of its natural resources and in so doing created the oligarchy that took over.

The same dumbshit argument about countries not wanting democracy could be made of any country until about 200 years ago, meanwhile a lot longstanding stable democracies have had flirtations with, or are weirdly on a trajectory to embracing authoritarianism.

You do realize Putin was not put in a position of power BY the West but rather got at a position of power because of the West.