1. #38081
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    How many Russians fled their country for same reason, comrade? How many more now wish they had?
    At least a million.

    A large chunk of those Ukrainians were under 30, and so couldn't be mobilised anyway.

  2. #38082
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,434
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Lol "their concerns" what the actual fuck. That secret agent Nazi Commies are running the Ukraine and extermination and conquest are the, final solution? That the West is purposefully or secretly or unknowingly backing secret Nazis?

    And "encouraging them to fight back" lolwut, against an armed oppressor whose war shows no signs of giving a shit about the people?

    Where are the fucking mods in this thread?
    Busy making the Nuremberg Defense for IDF soldiers in the Israel vs Palestine thread. Duh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #38083
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    But Germany changed after being militarily defeated, conquered and occupied for several years. So your argument kinda falls flat unless you can make that happen for Russia.
    The argument is that the minds of people can change (and thus Russia doesn't have to be "excluded" for eternity), not that it has to be done through military force.

    Or are you suggesting that Russia will be forever be lead and supported by degenerates?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2024-04-11 at 06:01 AM.

  4. #38084
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Or are you suggesting that Russia will be forever lead and supported by degenerates?
    That seems to be the case, mostly. They may have had a moment in the 19th century when they had a chance to change but they didn't and Lenin was the result, after that nothing ever seems to change there.

    Let's not forget that St. Peterburg and Moscow are very unrealistic cities when it comes to the average russian standard of living.

  5. #38085
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    FL, USA
    Posts
    4,645
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    That seems to be the case, mostly. They may have had a moment in the 19th century when they had a chance to change but they didn't and Lenin was the result, after that nothing ever seems to change there.

    Let's not forget that St. Peterburg and Moscow are very unrealistic cities when it comes to the average russian standard of living.
    It feels sometimes like a key part of Russian identity is an utter inability for self-determination. They went from monarchist Tsarist Russia, the authorarian Soviet Union, to a brief flirtation with actual democracy in the 90s before letting Putin take over after that.

    It feels like Russians need authoritarian despots to tell them how to live and what to think.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

  6. #38086
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    The argument is that the minds of people can change (and thus Russia doesn't have to be "excluded" for eternity), not that it has to be done through military force.

    Or are you suggesting that Russia will be forever be lead and supported by degenerates?
    Do you see any internal sign that it would not be the case ? I do not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    It feels sometimes like a key part of Russian identity is an utter inability for self-determination. They went from monarchist Tsarist Russia, the authorarian Soviet Union, to a brief flirtation with actual democracy in the 90s before letting Putin take over after that.

    It feels like Russians need authoritarian despots to tell them how to live and what to think.
    Like they ever knew something else ? They always were under dictatorship so they only knew that. The only time when they did not where the Elsin period after the end of the USSR, it was a time where the western influence "rushed" inside Russia but it mostly affected Moscow and St Petersbourg anyway.

  7. #38087
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    21,165
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    It feels sometimes like a key part of Russian identity is an utter inability for self-determination. They went from monarchist Tsarist Russia, the authorarian Soviet Union, to a brief flirtation with actual democracy in the 90s before letting Putin take over after that.

    It feels like Russians need authoritarian despots to tell them how to live and what to think.
    In fairness, their attempts at democracy were hopelessly undermined by western powers putting people like Putin in positions of authority so we could rob the state of its natural resources and in so doing created the oligarchy that took over.

    The same dumbshit argument about countries not wanting democracy could be made of any country until about 200 years ago, meanwhile a lot longstanding stable democracies have had flirtations with, or are weirdly on a trajectory to embracing authoritarianism.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2024-04-11 at 08:00 AM.

  8. #38088
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    In fairness, their attempts at democracy were hopelessly undermined by western powers putting people like Putin in positions of authority so we could rob the state of its natural resources and in so doing created the oligarchy that took over.

    The same dumbshit argument about countries not wanting democracy could be made of any country until about 200 years ago, meanwhile a lot longstanding stable democracies have had flirtations with, or are weirdly on a trajectory to embracing authoritarianism.
    You do realize Putin was not put in a position of power BY the West but rather got at a position of power because of the West.

  9. #38089
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    In fairness, their attempts at democracy were hopelessly undermined by western powers putting people like Putin in positions of authority so we could rob the state of its natural resources and in so doing created the oligarchy that took over.
    How exactly did "western powers" put Putin in charge of Russia?

  10. #38090
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    21,165
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You do realize Putin was not put in a position of power BY the West but rather got at a position of power because of the West.
    He got rich, got his influence, and built his cabal through his corrupt deals with the west. It very much suited western business and neo-liberal politicians to overlook a lot of things and present him as one of our friends while he took that money and consolidated power, even better when they got kickbacks in return, pretty much until he invaded Ukraine.

    Sure it wasn't a direct installation, but his opposition wasn't desirable because they couldn't offer the same, because they wanted to do things like invest money in the country instead, so when they fell out of windows nobody asked too much about it.

    So yeah, because of, and with a lot of help and support from.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2024-04-11 at 10:40 AM.

  11. #38091
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    He got rich, got his influence, and built his cabal through his corrupt deals with the west. It very much suited western business and neo-liberal politicians to overlook a lot of things and present him as one of our friends while he took that money and consolidated power, even better when they got kickbacks in return, pretty much until he invaded Ukraine.

    Sure it wasn't a direct installation, but his opposition wasn't desirable because they couldn't offer the same, because they wanted to do things like invest money in the country instead, so when they fell out of windows nobody asked too much about it.

    So yeah, because of, and with a lot of help and support from.
    putin promised Yeltsin he'd leave him and his family alone and in return he was installed as heir apparent, the west had very little to do with that.

  12. #38092
    It seems like Russia did manage to destroy large Ukrainian power station in last night's terror bombing campaign, primarily due to western failure of providing sufficient air defense capabilities. The company itself states the station is utterly, irrecovably destroyed which is a big hit because it was one of the major plants of energy. In a fair world this would be the sign to move in collectively and start setting Russia with red lines but alas probably we'll tell how appalled we are and continue business as usual..
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  13. #38093
    russia has been spotted using cargo trucks with cope cages loaded with infantry to directly assault Ukrainian positions across open terrain. It went about as well as you would expect.

    Something that has been noted of late is that russian losses in armoured vehicles have been so high of late that there appears to be a shortage of them - Rob Lee, who has been fairly doomer now for a while, has pointed it out. Last month russia lost around 460 IFVs - and they make about 15-20 a month. Already in the first week of this month another 100 were lost. But commanders have been told to attack, so I guess throwing trucks at the Ukrainians is what they are doing now. They must have drugged up the troops before sending them out cause there is no way they wouldn't know that was a death sentence.
    Last edited by Corvus; 2024-04-12 at 01:02 AM.

  14. #38094
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    russia has been spotted using cargo trucks with cope cages loaded with infantry to directly assault Ukrainian positions across open terrain. It went about as well as you would expect.
    This reminded me...have we talked about the turtle tank?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...nd-blew-it-up/

    Because that was a thing for a hot second and it seemed like cope cage 2.0 but dumber.

    In terms of battlefield innovations I feel like Ukraine has proven to be far more effective.

  15. #38095
    It got destroyed later when the warehouse it was in got hit.

    It was a mine clearing tank so in theory that much caging to prevent fpv drones disabling it was a good idea. Just didn't work.

    In just the last 4 days, visually confirmed russia damaged and destroyed equipment was 262, including 40 tanks and 51 ifvs.

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...Krka5dAhg&s=19
    Last edited by Corvus; 2024-04-12 at 03:35 AM.

  16. #38096
    The Lightbringer
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Look behind you.
    Posts
    3,382
    Quote Originally Posted by TrueNeutral View Post
    Bad news for the Kiev regime.
    Slovakia just elected a Ukraine-sceptic President (and rightly so), while a Ukraine-sceptic PM (that wields executive power) is already in office.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/07/e...ntl/index.html

    Ukraine will never win this war. Even beggar Zelensky admitted that Ukraine will lose the war without additional aid. But the US will only be sending more Ukrainian men to their deaths with by prolonging this war with additional aid. No winners here, just more deaths. It's time for a truce. It's up to the comedian. Calling for a truce is not a loss, but a win for everyone.
    When posts like this come up, it's always fascinating how the onus to stop the war is always put on Ukraine (The defender) and not Russia (The aggressor).

    It's like chiding someone for fighting back after they got punched in the face.

  17. #38097
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In the state of Denial.
    Posts
    27,184
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    When posts like this come up, it's always fascinating how the onus to stop the war is always put on Ukraine (The defender) and not Russia (The aggressor).

    It's like chiding someone for fighting back after they got punched in the face.
    More importantly, why would Russia be interested in a truce? If it's clear that the Ukraine will lose(which it isn't, just framing the idea here) what is the incentive for Russia to call it "good enough"? Why not finish the job? Even if they did, Russia has no incentive not to simply rebuild their forces and start again. And no reason not to attempt this in another nation.

    Ukraine has every incentive to fight to the death, to make this as slow and painful for Russia as they can. Even if Russia wins eventually, if the USA and the West collectively get bored and stop helping, Ukraine still has every incentive to make a Russian "victory" as costly as possible.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  18. #38098
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    When posts like this come up, it's always fascinating how the onus to stop the war is always put on Ukraine (The defender) and not Russia (The aggressor).

    It's like chiding someone for fighting back after they got punched in the face.
    I once told my bully in school to fuck off, and if he didnt we would fight... He got the teachers and all, giving me a full week of detention.. did the bullying end? no way, he kept doing it, and everytime *I* finally snapped I got punished... metaphor of today basically

  19. #38099
    The Lightbringer
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Look behind you.
    Posts
    3,382
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    More importantly, why would Russia be interested in a truce? If it's clear that the Ukraine will lose(which it isn't, just framing the idea here) what is the incentive for Russia to call it "good enough"? Why not finish the job? Even if they did, Russia has no incentive not to simply rebuild their forces and start again. And no reason not to attempt this in another nation.

    Ukraine has every incentive to fight to the death, to make this as slow and painful for Russia as they can. Even if Russia wins eventually, if the USA and the West collectively get bored and stop helping, Ukraine still has every incentive to make a Russian "victory" as costly as possible.
    Like if they bothered sticking with the 'We shouldn't be sending -our- money to fight in -someone else's- war' line, it'd at least be an argument. A stupid argument, but at least it's got a foundation.

    Shit like this is just saying that we should capitulate immediately to violence because violence bad without the fundamental understanding that rewarding violence just means that they'll keep doing violence to get what they want. For people who push this point of view legitimately, it's absolute, sniveling coward shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    I once told my bully in school to fuck off, and if he didnt we would fight... He got the teachers and all, giving me a full week of detention.. did the bullying end? no way, he kept doing it, and everytime *I* finally snapped I got punished... metaphor of today basically
    If I wanted to think too much about it, it (the idea that Ukraine should just give up) could just stem from some fucked up ideology about how The Strong must always be respected and not immediately folding to the Bully's unreasonable demands means you deserve to be destroyed until you buck up and give them what they want.

    But Occom's Razor likely tells us it's just a shill making up bullshit under a vapid assumption that left leaning folks will be mesmerized and dumbstruck by the use of 'Peace and love' language that they'll immediately side with them.

  20. #38100
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In the state of Denial.
    Posts
    27,184
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    Like if they bothered sticking with the 'We shouldn't be sending -our- money to fight in -someone else's- war' line, it'd at least be an argument. A stupid argument, but at least it's got a foundation.

    Shit like this is just saying that we should capitulate immediately to violence because violence bad without the fundamental understanding that rewarding violence just means that they'll keep doing violence to get what they want. For people who push this point of view legitimately, it's absolute, sniveling coward shit.
    And it is always so amusingly out of touch with the conversation around it. Like, contextually here is the thread, talking about destroyed Russian assets, and out of the blue, they post about how Slovakia elected a "Ukraine skeptic", I'm not even sure what that means, and how Ukraine fighting back is just pointless.

    It's like the Kool-Aid man just burst into a concert hall. Just completely out of touch.

    Which frankly is why I generally think they're paid shills or bots.

    I'd love to have better international relations with the other world powers, I think that'd be great. But they gotta stop acting like assholes first. It ain't gonna happen by deep-throating them.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •