1. #38241
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Again. That's the whole point of NATO. An Estonian unit can provide reconnaissance for a Polish armored united, supported by a Romanian air wing, while a different Polish air wing unit is hunting cruise missiles over the Arctic Ocean covering a British or Norwegian naval unit.

    That's why at the very beginning when you first replied to me I was advocating for even broader NATO wide cooperation with Asian and LATAM countries, possibly even directly including them into NATO, which would be my preference. NATO should be reformed to include pretty much anyone, anywhere on Earth as long as that country is both a functional democracy and has a vested interest in opposing China and Russia.
    Nothing gets the world on the same page like a major nation invading it's neighbor(s).

    But yeah seriously if half the US wasn't quietly or openly backing Russia, this would be a great time to push for a much broader global alliance.
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  2. #38242
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Again. That's the whole point of NATO. An Estonian unit can provide reconnaissance for a Polish armored united, supported by a Romanian air wing, while a different Polish air wing unit is hunting cruise missiles over the Arctic Ocean covering a British or Norwegian naval unit.

    That's why at the very beginning when you first replied to me I was advocating for even broader NATO wide cooperation with Asian and LATAM countries, possibly even directly including them into NATO, which would be my preference. NATO should be reformed to include pretty much anyone, anywhere on Earth as long as that country is both a functional democracy and has a vested interest in opposing China and Russia.
    I know. Which is not a fucking bilateral defence agreement.

    There are members of NATO with such bilateral agreements with other countries, and those that don’t. Those that don’t, don’t because they have little to offer and little to gain.

    Could they help those countries that do as part of NATO, absolutely, examples were given. Do they have to? No.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2024-04-22 at 05:01 PM.

  3. #38243
    https://www.politico.eu/article/russ...ian-territory/

    Russia's air force dropped a massive missile on its own territory earlier this month, according to an independent media report.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin's military has been regularly bombing Ukraine from the skies above its border regions, such as Belgorod, which has led to friendly fire incidents.

    Last week, Russia's air force “dropped” an X-59 missile in the Belgorod region, 92 kilometers from the border with Ukraine, Russian independent media Astra reported on Telegram late Monday, citing its sources.

    “The military had to destroy it on the spot. There were no victims,” Astra said.

    Overall, at least 21 aerial bombs fell from Russian planes on Russia or occupied territories of Ukraine in March and April alone, Astra reported.

    “There are no exact answers as to why this keeps happening,” the journalists wrote. POLITICO was not able to independently verify Astra's account.

    On April 2, a Russian bomber dropped an explosive near the railway station in Rubizhne, a town in the occupied part of the Luhansk region. “The number of victims is not reported, the survivors were evacuated and kept together,” Artem Lysohor, head of Ukraine's military administration in the Luhansk region said in a statement.

    On April 20 last year a Russian aerial bomb fell in the center of Belgorod, creating a giant crater. The Russian defense ministry said in a statement that “during the flight of the Su-34 aircraft of the Aerospace Forces over the city of Belgorod, an unusual fall of aviation ammunition occurred.”
    No explosion this time, but it appears Russia keeps accidentally dropping bombs and missiles on their own territory and the Ukranian territory they currently occupy.

    Russia's aggression against itself should absolutely be...tolerate and supported as fully as possible.

  4. #38244
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.politico.eu/article/russ...ian-territory/



    No explosion this time, but it appears Russia keeps accidentally dropping bombs and missiles on their own territory and the Ukranian territory they currently occupy.

    Russia's aggression against itself should absolutely be...tolerate and supported as fully as possible.
    Pairs nicely with them shooting down their own planes.

  5. #38245
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Pairs nicely with them shooting down their own planes.
    Didn't one also have a technical malfunction that caused it to go down? Are they stripping them for parts and still hoping they'll fly or something?

  6. #38246
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Again. That's the whole point of NATO. An Estonian unit can provide reconnaissance for a Polish armored united, supported by a Romanian air wing, while a different Polish air wing unit is hunting cruise missiles over the Arctic Ocean covering a British or Norwegian naval unit.

    That's why at the very beginning when you first replied to me I was advocating for even broader NATO wide cooperation with Asian and LATAM countries, possibly even directly including them into NATO, which would be my preference. NATO should be reformed to include pretty much anyone, anywhere on Earth as long as that country is both a functional democracy and has a vested interest in opposing China and Russia.
    If NATO can work in modern time.

    I feel that once Putin attacks Baltics, Trump will stop US from doing anything, Germany doesn't want to escalate, Hungary and Turkey side with Russia and rest will send few med packs to Tallinn.

  7. #38247
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    If NATO can work in modern time.

    I feel that once Putin attacks Baltics, Trump will stop US from doing anything, Germany doesn't want to escalate, Hungary and Turkey side with Russia and rest will send few med packs to Tallinn.
    That's assuming multiple things like Putin having anything left to attack Baltics with, Trump winning, Germany being a pussy again...Some of those are plausible, not all.

    Why on earth would the world's most well equipped coalition NOT defend its members against a nazi terrorist state with the least competent "worlds second best army...in Ukraine"?

  8. #38248
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Pairs nicely with them shooting down their own planes.
    It hurts itself in its confusion.
    Last edited by Poopymonster; 2024-04-23 at 08:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  9. #38249
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Why on earth would the world's most well equipped coalition NOT defend its members against a nazi terrorist state with the least competent "worlds second best army...in Ukraine"?
    Because in the end, politicians are pulling the strings. The baltic attack will come closer to 2030, which gives Russia enough time to rebuilt their military after Ukraine and to try install right wing populist pro-russia governments into NATO countries.

  10. #38250
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Because in the end, politicians are pulling the strings. The baltic attack will come closer to 2030, which gives Russia enough time to rebuilt their military after Ukraine and to try install right wing populist pro-russia governments into NATO countries.
    Very creative imagination you have there.

  11. #38251
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Very creative imagination you have there.
    Why?

    It's not really outside the realm of possibility.

    I think some people living in some weird state of euphoria, who knows what will happen tomorrow in Europe. The other side spares no effort to drive a wedge in European unity one way or another, just a few "rogue" states is enough to paralyze a lot of EU decision making. And I am not sure Europe wants to pin your hopes and wishes on whoever happens to sit in the chair over the pond, either.

    Europe needs to prepare to stand for itself, because next decade there will be a few more conflicts that will spread US very thin. This nonsense about how European backdoor can start crumbling if US does not send $$ in time should be a wakeup call for the Europe.

  12. #38252
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Very creative imagination you have there.
    I mean the time frame is a bit idealistic, but the idea isn't that far fetched.

    Succeed or Fail, if Russia's military or economic power isn't utterly handicapped by this Invasion then they'll just sit back and bide their time while doubling down on the 'Get Sympathetic governments elected into our enemy's countries' tactic that's worked out remarkably well for them so far; then try another go at invasion.

    Will this work? Probably not. Putin's not going to live forever and there are only so many rubes you can manipulate with cheap bribes and troll farms before you see diminishing returns on quality. Like the US in just a few short years went from a Russian Sympathetic Leader to a minority of congress that everyone else is very visibly getting fed up with.

  13. #38253
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Because in the end, politicians are pulling the strings. The baltic attack will come closer to 2030, which gives Russia enough time to rebuilt their military after Ukraine and to try install right wing populist pro-russia governments into NATO countries.
    "After Ukraine" and still having anything left to attack with implies Russia would win. Preparation for that scenario leaves us with years of time. And orks doing the war crimes as always, it sure doesn't invite any goodwill towards them from anyone with a brain. But yeah, NATO has never needed to invoke Article 5 before, so of course we can be left wondering how that'd work out.

  14. #38254
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    But yeah, NATO has never needed to invoke Article 5 before, so of course we can be left wondering how that'd work out.
    The US invoked it in 2001 following the 9/11 attack.

    Basically the long short of this discussion is, "Is NATO a functional organization?" based largely off the fact that it's rarely ever needed to do much as an organization. I'm remarkably skeptical in these arguments considering the whole point of NATO is the collective security it brings member nations and all that.

  15. #38255
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The US invoked it in 2001 following the 9/11 attack.

    Basically the long short of this discussion is, "Is NATO a functional organization?" based largely off the fact that it's rarely ever needed to do much as an organization. I'm remarkably skeptical in these arguments considering the whole point of NATO is the collective security it brings member nations and all that.
    Invoking it against a middle-of-nowhereistan and a bunch of terrorists in flip flops is one thing.

    Invoking it against Russia and co. is a whole another deal. The actual question here is, whether it will actually be used against Russia over let's say... Estonia and even if it will, will it be actual all-in fighting or as a poster few posts ago said send some medkits and good wishes?

  16. #38256
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Invoking it against a middle-of-nowhereistan and a bunch of terrorists in flip flops is one thing.

    Invoking it against Russia and co. is a whole another deal. The actual question here is, whether it will actually be used against Russia over let's say... Estonia and even if it will, will it be actual all-in fighting or as a poster few posts ago said send some medkits and good wishes?
    They said it wasn't invoked, I just provided a correction.

    Also, I'm unsure about "Russia and co." is exactly hugely different? Have we been watching a different war for the past 2+ years? I'm not remotely convinced Russia could even mobilize enough troops and supplies for a broader invasion, much less that Europe would be asleep during the long time it took them to do so following whatever the outcome of their invasion of Ukraine is.

    I mean, Joe alone basically whipped up enough support pre-invasion to quickly get supplies and funding to Ukraine and he was just one guy warning about it while everyone else (myself included) was confident that the troop buildup was more posturing by Putin.

  17. #38257
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Because in the end, politicians are pulling the strings. The baltic attack will come closer to 2030, which gives Russia enough time to rebuilt their military after Ukraine and to try install right wing populist pro-russia governments into NATO countries.
    Every bit as likely by then, is Russia is balkanised into multiple civil wars across its autonomous regions.

    Shit by 2030 I’d be surprised if both Putin and Trump were both still alive.

  18. #38258
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The US invoked it in 2001 following the 9/11 attack.

    Basically the long short of this discussion is, "Is NATO a functional organization?" based largely off the fact that it's rarely ever needed to do much as an organization. I'm remarkably skeptical in these arguments considering the whole point of NATO is the collective security it brings member nations and all that.
    Gotcha, wasn't aware of that. Think I was 13 back then, didn't exactly read details of the 9/11 and the consequences. But yeah, I find it bit comical that some vatniks are shouting about fucking around and finding out about any nuclear weaponry, but NATO defending its members is suddenly an unlikely thing that people doubt. Russia surely will obliterate all who dare to oppose them, but NATO is scurrying away...

  19. #38259
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    They said it wasn't invoked, I just provided a correction.

    Also, I'm unsure about "Russia and co." is exactly hugely different? Have we been watching a different war for the past 2+ years? I'm not remotely convinced Russia could even mobilize enough troops and supplies for a broader invasion, much less that Europe would be asleep during the long time it took them to do so following whatever the outcome of their invasion of Ukraine is.

    I mean, Joe alone basically whipped up enough support pre-invasion to quickly get supplies and funding to Ukraine and he was just one guy warning about it while everyone else (myself included) was confident that the troop buildup was more posturing by Putin.
    Russia is different because the stakes are very high and everyone understands that, so I am not sure what's to be not sure about.

    It's not even about "nooks", will Europe of 2020s be willing to field tens if not hundreds of thousands of soldiers, if some "less important" NATO member gets attacked?

    That is a big question, and nobody really wants to be finding out the answer for it.

  20. #38260
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Russia is different because the stakes are very high and everyone understands that, so I am not sure what's to be not sure about.

    It's not even about "nooks", will Europe of 2020s be willing to field tens if not hundreds of thousands of soldiers, if some "less important" NATO member gets attacked?

    That is a big question, and nobody really wants to be finding out the answer for it.
    If they're not then NATO falls apart overnight, it's as easy as that. But I remain skeptical that's the most likely outcome, much less that Russia would be able to field a real threat to mainland Europe even if it does manage to win part or all of Ukraine. For all their bluster, I doubt that's a fight that Russia/Putin is eager for.

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