1. #38261
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Russia took years to prepare for Ukraine, and that was with tested and uncontested leadership at the helm, going after a target that's magnitudes more vulnerable than NATO members. I somewhat doubt the idea that they'll take 5 years to both end the current festivities across the border and be ready to test a war machine that is a lot scarier than anything Ukraine could possibly muster.
    Unfortunately the war in Ukraine is prepping them for the next invasion. They are already in war economy, and the bad material in the military, both personnel and hardware, gets culled out in Ukraine. For the next invansion they have combat experienced army with new equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    You mean the nation that isn't part of NATO and thus doesn't fall under the provisions of being defended by NATO? Why would you expect NATO to be going all-in on defending a non-member? I've seen this argument before, and it's absolute bullshit.
    Doesn't need to be NATO. Just free democratic countries that are facing real threath from Russia right now.

    But they didn't want to provide help for Ukraine in order to "not provoke Russia and escalate."

  2. #38262
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Unfortunately the war in Ukraine is prepping them for the next invasion. They are already in war economy, and the bad material in the military, both personnel and hardware, gets culled out in Ukraine. For the next invansion they have combat experienced army with new equipment.
    That is quite possibly one of the most ludicruously stupid strategies I could possibly imagine. It's right up there with the idea that Coca-Cola intentionally tanked their own stock prices with New Coke purely to increase sales of Coke Classic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    But they didn't want to provide help for Ukraine in order to "not provoke Russia and escalate."
    Can you really not understand why a nation not involved in a war may not wish to escalate by getting materially involved in said war, and how that's completely different from a mutal defense alliance getting directly attacked?

  3. #38263
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    If NATO can work in modern time.

    I feel that once Putin attacks Baltics, Trump will stop US from doing anything, Germany doesn't want to escalate, Hungary and Turkey side with Russia and rest will send few med packs to Tallinn.
    We are not in 2017 anymore.

  4. #38264
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Unfortunately the war in Ukraine is prepping them for the next invasion. They are already in war economy, and the bad material in the military, both personnel and hardware, gets culled out in Ukraine. For the next invansion they have combat experienced army with new equipment.
    War economy is never sustainable in the medium-long term, and casualties taken in Ukraine alone means there's absolute not way they can win there (which is still a hypothetical, a frozen conflict slightly in their favor is still likely the best they can do for the moment) and be ready to potentially tussle with nations whose defense budget, available troops, and military technology makes Ukraine look like a joke a couple years afterwards. Not when Ukraine alone forces them to bring out mothballed hardware and most of their high-tier stuff has proven to be mediocre at best even against whatever hands-me-down NATO gave the Ukrainians, as opposed to what they keep for themselves.

    Furthermore, Russia's logistics situation grows a lot grimmer the farther they are from home. Ukraine is right next and it was already not easy, the Baltics are further and any sort of effort deeper into Europe makes things even worse. And surely the war goal of an invasion that risks war not only with all of Europe but also America isn't occupying simply three tiny countries of limited strategic and economic import.

    And of course, at the risk of summoning the poster that must not be named, there's on top of all that the inherent danger of entering a conflict with nuclear powers. Which nobody wants to do, no matter how deranged.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  5. #38265
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    The response to Ukraine invasion has been so pathetically weak in the west that unfortunately that doesn't leave much confidence for when NATO is under attack.
    But massively more powerful response than to Crimea. If NATO just acts like a scared pussy, that's the end of NATO. And with that, I'd expect more soured relationship between Europe and US, europeans sure are firmly together in this mostly, minus the pro-russian morons in certain nations. The world truly is pessimistic in these times.

  6. #38266
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    The response to Ukraine invasion has been so pathetically weak in the west that unfortunately that doesn't leave much confidence for when NATO is under attack.
    ??

    Thanks to western support and the valiant efforts of Ukranian fighters they've been defending their country for over two years pretty successfully.

    In 2014 it took Russia around one month to annex the Crimean Peninsula, so I'd argue that western response and efforts by Ukrainians have dramatically improved since then.

    Ukraine is not a NATO member though so I'm unsure why you think this has anything to do with NATO beyond Ukraine wanting to join.

  7. #38267
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    And with that, I'd expect more soured relationship between Europe and US
    And I suppose that is fine for the US. They hate us anyways.

  8. #38268
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    And I suppose that is fine for the US. They hate us anyways.
    I'm pretty confident China would love to get closer to Europe after vassalizing Russia, trade deals and all. But we shall see!

  9. #38269
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    And I suppose that is fine for the US. They hate us anyways.
    The US hates Europe? I mean, outside of Donald being an idiot if that's what you're saying I have no clue where you'd get that from.

  10. #38270
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The US hates Europe? I mean, outside of Donald being an idiot if that's what you're saying I have no clue where you'd get that from.
    They absolutely despite putting any resources towards Europe. We have no capital or raw resources that would benefit them.

  11. #38271
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    They absolutely despite putting any resources towards Europe. We have no capital or raw resources that would benefit them.
    As an American living in Europe, my anecdotal information trumps your anecdotal information and says you're basing your uninformed opinion on a minority of Americans who get a lot of screen time.

  12. #38272
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    They absolutely despite putting any resources towards Europe. We have no capital or raw resources that would benefit them.
    The EU has regularly tabled ideas of European armed forces, response forces, and money for improving its military logistics. It's the US who's jumped in every single time and said 'we got it covered' and put more in. The US has immense interest in Europe depending on it for defence.

  13. #38273
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The EU has regularly tabled ideas of European armed forces, response forces, and money for improving its military logistics. It's the US who's jumped in every single time and said 'we got it covered' and put more in. The US has immense interest in Europe depending on it for defence.
    Americans want to stop doing that and wasting money on Europe.

  14. #38274
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    They absolutely despite putting any resources towards Europe. We have no capital or raw resources that would benefit them.
    They do? Based on what?

    https://ustr.gov/countries-regions

    The top five purchasers of U.S. goods exports in 2022 were: Canada ($356.5 billion), Mexico ($324.3 billion), China ($150.4 billion), Japan ($80.2 billion), and the United Kingdom ($76.2 billion). U.S. goods exports to the European Union 27 were $350.8 billion.

    ...

    The top five suppliers of U.S. goods imports in 2022 were: China ($536.3 billion), Mexico ($454.8 billion), Canada ($436.6 billion), Japan ($148.1 billion), and Germany ($146.6 billion). U.S. goods imports from the European Union 27 were $553.3 billion.

    ...

    The top five purchasers of U.S. services exports in 2022 were: Ireland ($83.1 billion), the United Kingdom ($80.9 billion), Canada ($69.5 billion), Switzerland ($52.4 billion), and China ($42.2 billion). U.S. services exports to the European Union 27 were $238.6 billion.

    ...

    The top five suppliers of U.S. services imports in 2022 were: the United Kingdom ($70.8 billion), Germany ($42.0 billion), Canada ($40.6 billion), Japan ($38.5 billion), and Mexico ($37.3 billion). U.S. services imports from the European Union 27 were $166.7 billion
    Genuinely unsure what you're talking about and if it's anecdotal then it's entirely irrelevant.

  15. #38275
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Americans want to stop doing that and wasting money on Europe.
    Only a few Republican shills that either draw an income from Putin or don’t want to see the democrats getting good press and their handful of useful idiot followers. And that’s not even all of the republicans, mostly just the new maga-idiot branded ones.


    Americans love American global hegemony. Especially seeing as who the current alternatives are… China or Russia.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #38276
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Only a few Republican shills that either draw an income from Putin or don’t want to see the democrats getting good press and their handful of useful idiot followers. And that’s not even all of the republicans, mostly just the new maga-idiot branded ones.


    Americans love American global hegemony. Especially seeing as who the current alternatives are… China or Russia.
    "I rather send bullets to Ukraine than our boys."

    Mike Johnson.

    I agree with him on that.

  17. #38277
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Americans want to stop doing that and wasting money on Europe.
    You should probably stop pulling things from your ass. You're going to need to visit a doctor.

    It's primarily the GOP that's against sending aid to Ukraine, and even then it's divided among them. Even Lindsey Graham is yelling at some of his GOP colleagues about it. For the record, the GOP does not even make up a plurality of Americans.

    If you don't have any facts, just anecdotes based on your personal feelings then gtfo.

  18. #38278
    Aid Bill passed the Senate 79-18 so a lot of bipartisan support. Biden will now sign it and the weapons will start flowing again.

  19. #38279
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Americans want to stop doing that and wasting money on Europe.
    Trump and some of his maga idiots want to. Not Americans as a whole. I wouldn't be concerned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  20. #38280
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
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    All the Russian sympathizers in Congress like MTG should be required to register as foreign agents of Russia.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

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