Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Xyonai]

Clownlensky is probably the worst president in Ukraine's history. He was naïve enough not to see what happens when you poke the bear. His biggest mistake? Not being pragmatic and building bridges with Russia (that's what you should do when you have a neighbor like Russia and you're not in any military alliance), and trusting the world's number one troublemaker and warmonger, America.

Again, I reiterate: It's fucking fascinating how the onus is always and solely on Ukraine to capitulate and come to the table when Russia's the one who invaded them. Like why is that? Why is Russia running ram-shod through a sovereign nation, deliberately targeting non combatants and civilian infrastructure, Ukraine's fault? And why is it solely on Ukraine to make better diplomatic relationships with its Neighbor? When Russia's 'diplomacy' with Ukraine was bribing its former President into selling the country out, and responded to him being elected out by stealing a massive chunk of its land in Crimea?

I'd really like to have a straight answer, assuming you're arguing from a position with -any- sort of foundation to it and not simply screaming someone else's buzzwords and propaganda into the void like a Bethesda NPC reciting its ten or so programmed dialogue options.

[DarkTZeratul]

Again, I reiterate: It's fucking fascinating how the onus is always and solely on Ukraine to capitulate and come to the table when Russia's the one who invaded them. Like why is that? Why is Russia running ram-shod through a sovereign nation, deliberately targeting non combatants and civilian infrastructure, Ukraine's fault? And why is it solely on Ukraine to make better diplomatic relationships with its Neighbor? When Russia's 'diplomacy' with Ukraine was bribing its former President into selling the country out, and responded to him being elected out by stealing a massive chunk of its land in Crimea?

I'd really like to have a straight answer, assuming you're arguing from a position with -any- sort of foundation to it and not simply screaming someone else's buzzwords and propaganda into the void like a Bethesda NPC reciting its ten or so programmed dialogue options.

He previously said that he feels the onus is on Ukraine because Russia has no reason to stop. Of course, now he's just gone full mask-off with the whole "Clownlensky" nonsense, which shows how he really feels - not that the war is awful and Ukraine should sue for peace to stop a regrettable loss of life, but that he's just yet another pro-Russian stooge.

[Xyonai]

He previously said that he feels the onus is on Ukraine because Russia has no reason to stop. Of course, now he's just gone full mask-off with the whole "Clownlensky" nonsense, which shows how he really feels - not that the war is awful and Ukraine should sue for peace to stop a regrettable loss of life, but that he's just yet another pro-Russian stooge.

Ah, so the 'Man argues he was justified shooting the pizza delivery guy through the locked front door of his house by claiming they might've been an armed robber' defense.

Though it's also funny how many of our resident 'Enlightened Centrists' eventually just come out as Russian Sympathizers / Anti-American contrarians.

[Azadina]

Ah, so the 'Man argues he was justified shooting the pizza delivery guy through the locked front door of his house by claiming they might've been an armed robber' defense.

Though it's also funny how many of our resident 'Enlightened Centrists' eventually just come out as Russian Sympathizers / Anti-American contrarians.

More like he argues he was justified in breaking into the pizza deliverers home, shooting him and the entire family, and claiming the property as his own. Because they might have "sold out" and not delivered him anymore pizzas, after the last time the man threatened to kill the pizza delivery guy at gun point.

[Xyonai]

More like he argues he was justified in breaking into the pizza deliverers home, shooting him and the entire family, and claiming the property as his own. Because they might have "sold out" and not delivered him anymore pizzas, after the last time the man threatened to kill the pizza delivery guy at gun point.

Oh I was just trying to go for a 'Paranoid loser justifies being violent because of some imagined threat to his life/security' analogy but I guess I could've been more clear lol

[Surfd]

His biggest mistake? Not being pragmatic and building bridges with Russia

This is a little like arguing that the nerdy kid in school should be "pragmatic" and "build bridges" with the class bully. The bully who has already dunked him in the toilet twice and promised not to give him any more wedgies if he gave them all his lunch money and then gave him a wedgie anyway. But surely, SURELY if he just simped a bit harder and debased himself more thoroughly, the bullying would stop, right?

Pro Tip, Imbecile: You can't "build bridges" with someone with a proven track record of not respecting your right to existence who will willingly use those bridges to attack you.

[Kaleredar]

This is a little like arguing that the nerdy kid in school should be "pragmatic" and "build bridges" with the class bully. The bully who has already dunked him in the toilet twice and promised not to give him any more wedgies if he gave them all his lunch money and then gave him a wedgie anyway. But surely, SURELY if he just simped a bit harder and debased himself more thoroughly, the bullying would stop, right?

Pro Tip, Imbecile: You can't "build bridges" with someone with a proven track record of not respecting your right to existence who will willingly use those bridges to attack you.

Let’s take their tact and turn it back on them:

If Russia was so threatened by NATO, why didn’t Russia try capitulating with it?

NATO is clearly going to keep expanding. Russia is powerless to stop that. Why doesn’t Russia simply bend the knee and acquiesce to NATO’s wishes? Eh, @TrueNeutral ?

[Zaydin]

But he is a crybaby. A terrible leader who caused the deaths of many of citizens hiding behind a failing macho image constructed by his PR people.
Clownlensky is probably the worst president in Ukraine's history. He was naïve enough not to see what happens when you poke the bear. His biggest mistake? Not being pragmatic and building bridges with Russia (that's what you should do when you have a neighbor like Russia and you're not in any military alliance), and trusting the world's number one troublemaker and warmonger, America.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwoVxQBaMAID8my.png[IMG]

So how much are you being paid by Putin?

[TrueNeutral]

Again, I reiterate: It's fucking fascinating how the onus is always and solely on Ukraine to capitulate and come to the table when Russia's the one who invaded them. Like why is that? Why is Russia running ram-shod through a sovereign nation, deliberately targeting non combatants and civilian infrastructure, Ukraine's fault? And why is it solely on Ukraine to make better diplomatic relationships with its Neighbor? When Russia's 'diplomacy' with Ukraine was bribing its former President into selling the country out, and responded to him being elected out by stealing a massive chunk of its land in Crimea?

I'd really like to have a straight answer, assuming you're arguing from a position with -any- sort of foundation to it and not simply screaming someone else's buzzwords and propaganda into the void like a Bethesda NPC reciting its ten or so programmed dialogue options.

Geopolitics is not about morals, it's about practicality. If you have an aggressive and powerful neighbor, and you have no insurance, then you would want to have a friendly and stable relationship with your powerful neighbor out of pragmatism. Every nation should understand the reality of geopolitics, it is unfortunate that Ukraine voted in this politically inexperienced and naïve clown, who, frankly, should go back to comedy.

Negotiating a peace settlement is NOT capitulating. Putin does not seek to occupy Ukraine (except for the pro-Russian parts), Ukraine will still remain a sovereign country and their survival is very important to me. At most, he wants the pro-Russian parts of Ukraine like the Donbass and Crimea (which is effectively part of Russia anyway), and these pro-Russia parts leaving Ukraine to be part of Russia should be seen as a win for Ukraine. Why would Ukraine want to control a territory that is hostile to them anyway?

Why should Ukraine negotiate? Because letting millions die to the last man is not ideal. Russia has the ability to sustain its war effort for awhile. How are you going to pressure Russia who is more powerful? Russia isn't going to run out of materials or manpower as MSM claimed. Unfortunately, we live in a world where might makes right. Troublemaker USA proved it with their numerous military interventions, invasions, and regime change, and they pretty much got away unpunished. Now they are funding Israel to wage its genocidal campaign against the Palestinians while hypocritically condemning Russia's invasion. Why did the rest of the western world not impose sanctions on the USA for invading Iraq? Because the world economy would collapse. Might makes right. Ukraine here is in a weaker position and they have no choice but to negotiate or more people will die over ego.

[Zaydin]

Geopolitics is not about morals, it's about practicality. If you have an aggressive and powerful neighbor, and you have no insurance, then you would want to have a friendly and stable relationship with your powerful neighbor out of pragmatism.

Negotiating a peace settlement is NOT capitulating. Putin does not seek to occupy Ukraine (except for the pro-Russian parts), Ukraine will still remain a sovereign country and their survival is very important to me. At most, he wants the pro-Russian parts of Ukraine like the Donbass and Crimea (which is effectively part of Russia anyway), and these pro-Russia parts leaving Ukraine to be part of Russia should be seen as a win for Ukraine. Why would Ukraine want to control a territory that is hostile to them anyway?

Why should Ukraine negotiate? Because letting millions die to the last man is not ideal. Russia has the ability to sustain its war effort for awhile. How are you going to pressure Russia who is more powerful? Russia isn't going to run out of materials or manpower as MSM claimed. Unfortunately, we live in a world where might makes right. Troublemaker USA proved it with their numerous military interventions, invasions, and regime change, and they pretty much got away unpunished. Now they are funding Israel to wage its genocidal campaign against the Palestinians while hypocritically condemning Russia's invasion. Why did the rest of the western world not impose sanctions on the USA for invading Iraq? Because the world economy would collapse. Might makes right. Ukraine here is in a weaker position and they have no choice but to negotiate or more people will die over ego.

No one is going to listen to a single word of your nonsense given you outed yourself as a paid Russian troll.

[TrueNeutral]

No one is going to listen to a single word of your nonsense given you outed yourself as a paid Russian troll.

I'm not pro-Russia or pro-US. I find both countries despicable given how much damage they have done to others who do not align with them.
I am anti-war and pro-peace, which makes me both anti-US and anti-Russia. I am also a realist, unlike you guys who think that Ukraine should fight to the last man and eventually lose the war. I am the most pro-Ukrainian person here because I care about Ukrainian lives.

[Kaleredar]

Geopolitics is not about morals, it's about practicality. If you have an aggressive and powerful neighbor, and you have no insurance, then you would want to have a friendly and stable relationship with your powerful neighbor out of pragmatism. Every nation should understand the reality of geopolitics.

Negotiating a peace settlement is NOT capitulating. Putin does not seek to occupy Ukraine (except for the pro-Russian parts), Ukraine will still remain a sovereign country and their survival is very important to me. At most, he wants the pro-Russian parts of Ukraine like the Donbass and Crimea (which is effectively part of Russia anyway), and these pro-Russia parts leaving Ukraine to be part of Russia should be seen as a win for Ukraine. Why would Ukraine want to control a territory that is hostile to them anyway?

Why should Ukraine negotiate? Because letting millions die to the last man is not ideal. Russia has the ability to sustain its war effort for awhile. How are you going to pressure Russia who is more powerful? Russia isn't going to run out of materials or manpower as MSM claimed. Unfortunately, we live in a world where might makes right. Troublemaker USA proved it with their numerous military interventions, invasions, and regime change, and they pretty much got away unpunished. Now they are funding Israel to wage its genocidal campaign against the Palestinians while hypocritically condemning Russia's invasion. Why did the rest of the western world not impose sanctions on the USA for invading Iraq? Because the world economy would collapse. Might makes right. Ukraine here is in a weaker position and they have no choice but to negotiate or more people will die over ego.

Why should Ukraine believe Russia's claims it "doesn't want to control it?" Russia has lied at every single step leading up to and during this war.

And that's leaving out that you just ignored a bunch of other posts thoroughly dressing down about every word you posted previously. I assume it's for no reason other than the fact that you really cannot respond to them.


So I'll turn your logic back against you:

If NATO borders Russia, and NATO is far stronger than Russia, why does Russia not capitulate to NATO's wishes? Why does Russia seek to keep provoking NATO? Shouldn't NATO give Russia an ultimatum, and Russia should bend over backwards to acquiesce?

NATO has no desire to control Russia. It had no desire previously and does not have one now. NATO has never invaded Russia. Shouldn't Russia be doing everything in its power to keep the far stronger NATO neighbor it has happy?

Like, for instance, getting their sorry asses out of Ukraine? That would make NATO pretty happy, and would save many Russian lives.


Funny how to you, everyone has to do what Russia and Russia alone wants. Luckily the rest of the world is quite happy to deny that tinpot dictatorship its megalomaniacal, third Reich-esque aspirations.

[Zaydin]

I'm not pro-Russia or pro-US. I find both countries despicable given how much damage they have done to others who do not align with them.
I am anti-war and pro-peace, which makes me both anti-US and anti-Russia. I am also a realist, unlike you guys who think that Ukraine should fight to the last man and eventually lose the war. I am the most pro-Ukrainian person here because I care about Ukrainian lives.

No, you are absolutely pro-Russia. Your past posts have made that abundantly clear. Stop trying to gaslight us because it won't work.

[Specialka]

Why should Ukraine believe Russia's claims it "doesn't want to control it?" Russia has lied at every single step leading up to and during this war.

And that's leaving out that you just ignored a bunch of other posts thoroughly dressing down about every word you posted previously. I assume it's for no reason other than the fact that you really cannot respond to them.


So I'll turn your logic back against you:

If NATO borders Russia, and NATO is far stronger than Russia, why does Russia not capitulate to NATO's wishes? Why does Russia seek to keep provoking NATO? Shouldn't NATO give Russia an ultimatum, and Russia should bend over backwards to acquiesce?

NATO has no desire to control Russia. It had no desire previously and does not have one now. NATO has never invaded Russia. Shouldn't Russia be doing everything in its power to keep the far stronger NATO neighbor it has happy?

Like, for instance, getting their sorry asses out of Ukraine? That would make NATO pretty happy, and would save many Russian lives.


Funny how to you, everyone has to do what Russia and Russia alone wants. Luckily the rest of the world is quite happy to deny that tinpot dictatorship its megalomaniacal, third Reich-esque aspirations.

Easy answer, because Russia seems to think they can take on NATO or at least that they can get away with. Sad reality of geopolitics.

And it is also clear that the Russian government does not care about human losses but that is nothing new.

[Azadina]

I'm not pro-Russia or pro-US. I find both countries despicable given how much damage they have done to others who do not align with them.
I am anti-war and pro-peace, which makes me both anti-US and anti-Russia. I am also a realist, unlike you guys who think that Ukraine should fight to the last man and eventually lose the war. I am the most pro-Ukrainian person here because I care about Ukrainian lives.

If you cared about Ukrainian lives, you'd hope for maximum amount of RuZZki corpses, and weapon deliveries to Ukraine to insure that. Because guess what kremlin boy: that's what it takes. Nothing short of.

[Specialka]

No, you are absolutely pro-Russia. Your past posts have made that abundantly clear. Stop trying to gaslight us because it won't work.

I would say he is more in to trigger people because you are so easy to trigger. And stop using word like gaslight which literally means nothing.

[Kaleredar]

Easy answer, because Russia seems to think they can take on NATO or at least that they can get away with. Sad reality of geopolitics.

And it is also clear that the Russian government does not care about human losses but that is nothing new.

Ah but should Russia not deal in "geopolitical reality?" Russia struggles to conquer Ukraine, a single country it borders and that it had years of surreptitious buildup to try and do, unfettered by practically anyone. Why would it think itself able to take on 32 other countries who combined control over half the world's entire GDP and the vast bulk of its military might?


I just don't understand why TrueNeutral isn't asking Russia to capitulate to NATO. It's denying geopolitical reality.

All Russia's insistence on defying NATO does is cause more dead Russians.

[Specialka]

Ah but should Russia not deal in "geopolitical reality?" Russia struggles to conquer Ukraine, a single country it borders and that it had years of surreptitious buildup to try and do, unfettered by practically anyone. Why would it think itself able to take on 32 other countries who combined control over half the world's entire GDP and the vast bulk of its military might?


I just don't understand why TrueNeutral isn't asking Russia to capitulate to NATO. It's denying geopolitical reality.

All Russia's insistence on defying NATO does is cause more dead Russians.

Geopolitics is also about the image you give to other. While clearly, Russia showed poor military efficiency, they showed they will go to far length to get what they want, and that would scare any country.

And asking "Russia to capitulate to NATO" is asking something that is not happening because Russia is not at war with NATO.

[Kaleredar]

Geopolitics is also about the image you give to other. While clearly, Russia showed poor military efficiency, they showed they will go to far length to get what they want, and that would scare any country.

The image they are cultivating currently is that they are unable to subdue a much smaller country they directly border that they basically sucker punched.

TrueNeutral insists on calling Zelensky a "crybaby" who "begs for handouts," and currently Ukraine is holding Russia at bay. Why does Russia want to be seen as a country being evenly matched by a country led by a crybaby?

And asking "Russia to capitulate to NATO" is asking something that is not happening because Russia is not at war with NATO.

Yes but clearly NATO wants Russia to stop fighting Ukraine. That's the geopolitical reality.

If Russia acquiesced to this desire, wouldn't fewer Russians die than if they continue on their current trajectory?

Again I'm just phrasing this in the "logic" of TrueNeutral here in their constant, incessant, and bad-faith imploring for Ukraine to give up; the notion that apparently weaker entities should submit to stronger ones, and the main goal should be in preserving lives now, irrespective of what that means for the future.

NATO is stronger than Russia. NATO wants Russia out of Ukraine. Russia's current path means more Russians will die than if they stopped. Therefore, Russia should do what NATO wants. To save all of those Russian lives.

I just can't fathom why he wont respond to me...

[Specialka]

The image they are cultivating currently is that they are unable to subdue a much smaller country they directly border that they basically sucker punched.

TrueNeutral insists on calling Zelensky a "crybaby" who "begs for handouts," and currently Ukraine is holding Russia at bay. Why does Russia want to be seen as a country being evenly matched by a country led by a crybaby?



Yes but clearly NATO wants Russia to stop fighting Ukraine. That's the geopolitical reality.

If Russia acquiesced to this desire, wouldn't fewer Russians die than if they continue on their current trajectory?

Again I'm just phrasing this in the "logic" of TrueNeutral here in their constant, incessant, and bad-faith imploring for Ukraine to give up; the notion that apparently weaker entities should submit to stronger ones, and the main goal should be in preserving lives now, irrespective of what that means for the future.

NATO is stronger than Russia. NATO wants Russia out of Ukraine. Russia's current path means more Russians will die than if they stopped. Therefore, Russia should do what NATO wants. To save all of those Russian lives.

I just can't fathom why he wont respond to me...

But like I said, the russian government does not care about human losses, that should be clear by now.