Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Mayhem]

But like I said, the russian government does not care about human losses, that should be clear by now.

And apparently also not about the image, so what do they care about?

[TrueNeutral]

Why should Ukraine believe Russia's claims it "doesn't want to control it?" Russia has lied at every single step leading up to and during this war.

And that's leaving out that you just ignored a bunch of other posts thoroughly dressing down about every word you posted previously. I assume it's for no reason other than the fact that you really cannot respond to them.


So I'll turn your logic back against you:

If NATO borders Russia, and NATO is far stronger than Russia, why does Russia not capitulate to NATO's wishes? Why does Russia seek to keep provoking NATO? Shouldn't NATO give Russia an ultimatum, and Russia should bend over backwards to acquiesce?

NATO has no desire to control Russia. It had no desire previously and does not have one now. NATO has never invaded Russia. Shouldn't Russia be doing everything in its power to keep the far stronger NATO neighbor it has happy?

Like, for instance, getting their sorry asses out of Ukraine? That would make NATO pretty happy, and would save many Russian lives.


Funny how to you, everyone has to do what Russia and Russia alone wants. Luckily the rest of the world is quite happy to deny that tinpot dictatorship its megalomaniacal, third Reich-esque aspirations.

Is NATO really stronger than Russia? Russia possesses the world's biggest nuclear arsenal, and Putin has the ability to unilaterally call for a nuclear strike, unlike the US where there are checks and balances. Strength is not just about conventional forces but also nuclear and ability to project fear to others. Russia is superior in these two aspects because there are no checks and balances in Russia and many NATO countries are frightened by the prospect of a nuclear war.

In short, Russia is powerful enough to stand up to NATO and not just suck it up.


Infracted.

[Kaleredar]

But like I said, the russian government does not care about human losses, that should be clear by now.

Are we to take that as a good or bad thing?

Because again, one could say that the Ukrainians don't "care" either, in the sense that they don't care that they may die fighting for their freedom. Or perhaps put better, the freedom of their country is more important to them than their lives.

So I'm simply at a loss for how any of these things should be uniquely applied to Ukraine if one were, say "truly neutral." Because following any form of logic and taking it a single step past Russia (instead of selectively stopping there as them being a sole geopolitical arbiter) would imply that Russia should cease their fighting so that the much stronger NATO is not displeased with them.

- - - Updated - - -

Is NATO really stronger than Russia? Russia possesses the world's biggest nuclear arsenal, and Putin has the ability to unilaterally call for a nuclear strike, unlike the US where there are checks and balances. Strength is not just about conventional forces but also nuclear and ability to project fear to others. Russia is superior in these two aspects because there are no checks and balances in Russia and many NATO countries are frightened by the prospect of a nuclear war.

In short, Russia is powerful enough to stand up to NATO and not just suck it up.

Are they though?

Because what I'm hearing is that a lot of dead Russians could happen.

Why does Russia insist on taking a path that will lead to more dead Russians, when they could just do what the stronger NATO wants and have fewer dead Russians?

[Mayhem]

Is NATO really stronger than Russia? Russia possesses the world's biggest nuclear arsenal, and Putin has the ability to unilaterally call for a nuclear strike, unlike the US where there are checks and balances. Strength is not just about conventional forces but also nuclear and ability to project fear to others. Russia is superior in these two aspects because there are no checks and balances in Russia and many NATO countries are frightened by the prospect of a nuclear war.

In short, Russia is powerful enough to stand up to NATO and not just suck it up.

So the stronger than NATO Russia is currently stopped by Ukraine provided with scraps by NATO.

Uhu ok, sure, sure.

[Specialka]

Are we to take that as a good or bad thing?

Because again, one could say that the Ukrainians don't "care" either, in the sense that they don't care that they may die fighting for their freedom. Or perhaps put better, the freedom of their country is more important to them than their lives.

So I'm simply at a loss for how any of these things should be uniquely applied to Ukraine if one were, say "truly neutral." Because following any form of logic and taking it a single step past Russia (instead of selectively stopping there as them being a sole geopolitical arbiter) would imply that Russia should cease their fighting so that the much stronger NATO is not displeased with them.

- - - Updated - - -



Are they though?

Because what I'm hearing is that a lot of dead Russians could happen.

Why does Russia insist on taking a path that will lead to more dead Russians, when they could just do what the stronger NATO wants and have fewer dead Russians?

Well, we do care (as in the West), and they don't, so I would say it is a bad thing for us because if we go to war, they will send people to the meatgrinder and we will be forced to do the same. It is a tough situation.

[TrueNeutral]

Are we to take that as a good or bad thing?

Because again, one could say that the Ukrainians don't "care" either, in the sense that they don't care that they may die fighting for their freedom. Or perhaps put better, the freedom of their country is more important to them than their lives.

So I'm simply at a loss for how any of these things should be uniquely applied to Ukraine if one were, say "truly neutral." Because following any form of logic and taking it a single step past Russia (instead of selectively stopping there as them being a sole geopolitical arbiter) would imply that Russia should cease their fighting so that the much stronger NATO is not displeased with them.

- - - Updated - - -



Are they though?

Because what I'm hearing is that a lot of dead Russians could happen.

Why does Russia insist on taking a path that will lead to more dead Russians, when they could just do what the stronger NATO wants and have fewer dead Russians?

Russia has the numbers to sustain. Ukraine doesn't. Putin is also more inclined to use nuclear weapons than anyone else if he is pushed into a corner, even if it means dragging the rest of the world down with him. Given the prospect of a nuclear war, and Ukraine's worsening situation, Russia is at a stronger position now.

So the stronger than NATO Russia is currently stopped by Ukraine provided with scraps by NATO.

Uhu ok, sure, sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...astern-ukraine
Nuff said

[Mekh]

Russia has the numbers to sustain. Ukraine doesn't. Putin is also more inclined to use nuclear weapons than anyone else if he is pushed into a corner, even if it means dragging the rest of the world down with him. Given the prospect of a nuclear war, and Ukraine's worsening situation, Russia is at a stronger position now.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...astern-ukraine
Nuff said

Just three more days, bro! Kyiv will fall any day now, bro! Just wait until Trump is elected, bro! Please, bro! Russia strong, I swear, bro! We have nukes, bro!

[Mayhem]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...astern-ukraine
Nuff said

Exactly, that's before stuff from NATO arrived, very well spotted.

[Lahis]

I'm not pro-Russia or pro-US. I find both countries despicable given how much damage they have done to others who do not align with them.
I am anti-war and pro-peace, which makes me both anti-US and anti-Russia. I am also a realist, unlike you guys who think that Ukraine should fight to the last man and eventually lose the war. I am the most pro-Ukrainian person here because I care about Ukrainian lives.

No you don't. Any "peace" with Russia is just refueling and reaming pause untill they engage again. Russia's goal is ore 1991 Soviet Union borders and erasure of Ukrainian identity and people.

[Xyonai]

Geopolitics is not about morals, it's about practically...

I know you're banned because your ilk can't help itself, but gonna get my licks in anyway;

I'm not going to go through your reply bit by bit, because honestly it's a lot of bunk, but it seems the crux of it just boils down to "Russia is uniquely justified in invading and running amok in it's neighbor's territory because it's big and scary and strong and it's justifyibly punishing Ukraine for not bending the knee" and I think that's some horseshit.

Like if you want to talk about the practically of Geopolitics: Every interaction Ukraine has had with Russia in modern history has been a negative for them. From being the USSR's meat wall from the Nazis, to Stalin starving millions of them to death and stealing their wealth, to post Soviet Russia meddling with their sovereignty and undermining them as a country, to watching Russia bully and cudgol and annex it's other neighbors in bloody, cruel wars, culminating in the 2014 annexation of Crimea and the invasion of today; Why would Ukraine want to willingly ally itself with a country that has proven to be utterly untrustworthy and cruel when allowed to have a position of power over it?

And so then, with your nonsensical 'might makes right' reasoning, why is it suddenly wrong for them to want to make other, strong allies to protect itself? The EU, NATO, and the US are big motherfuckerd, who's tech alone has been instrumental in stalling out Russia's '3 day operation', so I'd say they're pretty darn strong allies.

And you keep bringing up the fact that Ukrainians keep dying as a reason to capitulate when, again, they'd stop if Russia just fucking backed off. Unless Russia's ultimate goal is so important that they feel compelled to throw thousands of their own men into a perpetual meat grinder.

Lastly; I agree, the US's actions in Iraq and their continued unquestioned support of Isreal does make a lot of their moral high ground shit look hollow. Though if you want to compare Gaza to Ukraine, the solution to peace for both is for the aggressor to fuck off and learn how to actually employ diplomacy than unevenly handed violence.

But, as per your own logic, the world didn't punish the US because it's the strongest motherfucker in the room and, if might does equal right, no one can really tell them no. Which I guess is why you invented your cope that Russia's a peer or even stronger than the US, to justify why they shouldn't be compelled to also grovel and beg at the feet of someone who'd otherwise be their better.

Like you're not fooling anyone with your concerned, centrist shtick when you can't help but insult Russia's enemies in every single one of your posts like it's muscle memory.

[Saradain]

Before the usual suspects start twisting new propaganda.

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-...o-martial-law/

Ukraine sent an application to the Council of Europe regarding the suspension of the terms of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms due to martial law, according to a statement published on April 28.

Ukraine made the appeal on April 4, but it was published by the end of the month.

Justice Minister Denys Maliuska said that this application was part of Ukraine's regular updates on what restrictions it might impose and is one of Kyiv's international obligations, adding that some suspensions were actually removed in April. The first such application was submitted in 2015, one year after the start of Russian aggression in Crimea and Donbas.

The European Court of Human Rights gives Council of Europe member states the right to derogate from some articles under special circumstances, such as armed aggression.

According to Kyiv's application, the military could temporarily implement limitations on certain rights.

These measures would include seizing property for the needs of the state, following the curfew, prohibiting peaceful mass events, and prohibiting residence changes for those who registered with the military or special registry, among other limitations.

The military command is also allowed to inspect the belongings, vehicles, baggage, cargo, office premises, and citizens' homes by the established procedure and implement the special regime for citizens, foreigners, and stateless persons, as well as vehicles' movement.

The military housing duty for individuals and legal entities is also established, complying with martial law.

Martial law was introduced on Feb. 24, 2022, when Russia launched the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Since then, the Ukrainian government has prolonged it several times.

Under martial law, Ukrainian men aged between 18 and 60, with some exceptions, are not allowed to leave the country as they may be called up for military service.

The Ukrainian government is seeking to ramp up its mobilization efforts in 2024 due to the lack of personnel in the Armed Forces.

In April, President Volodymyr Zelensky signed the updated bill on mobilization, which will be put into force the following month. It will introduce new restrictions to those who violate it, including sanctions on personal property.

For a nation in state of war, in this case, existential threat - this sounds logical to a degree. Obviously some of the wording can and will worry others...But going any less strict would just enable russian cohorts to perform their operations with more ease. Not to mention this kind of change bringing enmity towards the ruling goverment is not easy.

[Sunseeker]

Before the usual suspects start twisting new propaganda.

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-...o-martial-law/



For a nation in state of war, in this case, existential threat - this sounds logical to a degree. Obviously some of the wording can and will worry others...But going any less strict would just enable russian cohorts to perform their operations with more ease. Not to mention this kind of change bringing enmity towards the ruling goverment is not easy.

Generally speaking, the imposition of restrictions is less meaningful than their removal when things are concluded. Unfortunately, that timetable is out of Ukraines hands.

Realistically of course, before someone comes in and says Ukraine should just roll over.

[Saradain]

Generally speaking, the imposition of restrictions is less meaningful than their removal when things are concluded. Unfortunately, that timetable is out of Ukraines hands.

Realistically of course, before someone comes in and says Ukraine should just roll over.

Martial law is not fun especially in modern times because how it limits your personal freedom. But then state of war is not something many nations have faced since WW2. I can just speak of personal anecdote but I have not heard, read or been told to by any finns who would think negatively of martial law during war time, although last time Finland was at war was around 1945...It simply was a necessity to defend homeland from the usual russian aggression

[Elder Millennial]

sip.

I also like to add, the moral position of the US or NATO or Europe or whatever is inconsequential to the morality of the the Ukrainian people's efforts to assert their own independence and freedom.

The US position on Israel is irrelevant to Ukraine's struggle.

[DarkTZeratul]

I also like to add, the moral position of the US or NATO or Europe or whatever is inconsequential to the morality of the the Ukrainian people's efforts to assert their own independence and freedom.

Yeah, but TrueNeutral has bought into the bullshit of this somehow being a NATO vs. Russia proxy war in which poor defenseless Ukraine has no agency of their own whatsoever, and the only reason they're even defending themselves is because the evil United States and their corrupt leader are forcing them to, somehow.

[Surfd]

Strength is not just about conventional forces but also nuclear and ability to project fear to others. Russia is superior in these two aspects because there are no checks and balances in Russia and many NATO countries are frightened by the prospect of a nuclear war.

Small tip for you: Being "Strong and Powerful and this makes you dangerous" and being "possibly crazy or insane and this makes you dangerous" both allow one to invoke feelings of Fear, but they do so for VASTLY different reasons and provoke VASTLY different responses. Russia used to be the former. Their disastrous showing in the Ukraine has pretty clearly shown that they are no longer there, and relying on "do what we want or we threaten you with nukes" rhetoric puts them directly in the camp of the latter. Which is geopolitical suicide, because nobody cuts serious deals with psychopaths threatening global nuclear war.

[Vampiregenesis]

what will happen if Ukraine lose Kramatorsk? I read that there will be a final big battle over there and if Ukraine lose, it will have massive negative effects for it and Russia will take all of donbass.

[DarkTZeratul]

what will happen if Ukraine lose Kramatorsk? I read that there will be a final big battle over there and if Ukraine lose, it will have massive negative effects for it and Russia will take all of donbass.

Protip: in real wars, there is rarely a "big final battle." And there's certainly never one that can be called that in advance.

[Iphie]

Protip: in real wars, there is rarely a "big final battle." And there's certainly never one that can be called that in advance.

While true, they were substantially more common the further back you go. Waterloo does come to mind for one which might have been called that in advance due to everyone knowing what winning or losing meant.

[Jessicka]

While true, they were substantially more common the further back you go. Waterloo does come to mind for one which might have been called that in advance due to everyone knowing what winning or losing meant.

Yeah, that's when battles were fought with honour and gentlemanly conduct, where a time and place would be declared and everyone would show up on an organised battlefield with bands and banners dressed in company colours. Any sense of that was lost with the industrialisation of war.