1. #39041
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    No, NATO isn't growing because Putin thought the walls were closing in around him, NATO is growing because Putin is an imperialist fascist that regards the collapse of the USSR as a tragedy, and wants to aggressively restore the borders of the Russian Empire and live to see it before he chokes on his own puke and kicks the bucket, and to be remembered as the man who "restored Russia to greatness" after he is gone, and countries bordering Russia ally with each others wanting no part in that whatsoever.

    That they honestly believed NATO were out to get them is just a bunch of tripe, it's far worse than that.
    I guess my wording wasn't that good on my closing statement but we otherwise agree with each other on the whole 'Putin being an imperialist/paranoid lunatic doesn't justify his actions, nor are we obligated to assuage his unfounded worries' thing.

  2. #39042
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    Yeah this war isn't ending anytime soon, and Russia has everything to gain from stalls and slow responses unless Ukraine makes some real big plays with their new toys and cripples Russia's Offensive Plans, and even then it becomes another stalemate for another few months.

    I don't think EU support is going to evaporate overnight; a lot of those far right coalitions won on immigration issues and - as far as I know - supporting Ukraine remains fairly popular with the general electorate, but there's still room for the propaganda machine to churn or for Russian sympathetic political figures to drag their feet and bog up the works.

    Same thing for the US, though Republicans and Trump don't really give a shit about what's actually popular and will probably axe all support for Ukraine as soon as they're able to, then just coast on being the other half of a two party system to shield them from consequences.
    If in the US we get our shit together, the war would end a bit sooner.
    But the useful idiots and wanna be russian dicktaster, I mean, dictator will do everything to stop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  3. #39043
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's a domestic Ukranian issue.

    I thought Putin didn't want to start a war? Why start one he didn't want to start? Why remain in one he didn't want to start?

    So was it to denazify Ukraine? Was it because of NATO? Was it because of Ukrainians being mean to some of their own? The rotating door of reasons is confusing since we never know which one we're supposed to take seriously at any given moment.

    Consistency is not thy name.
    I think that NATO is the most important reason and waaay second comes the Russian speaking population. Either way, the local population had a bad time with the neo nazis of the Azov battalion. We have had multiple people from Marioupolis coming live in Greek TV saying that they fear for their lives because of them. Most of our parliament also recognizes them as Nazis, so i guess its a common knowledge here at Greece that there was a right wing problem in Ukraine.

    Now, is all of Ukraine run by Nazis? Nope. Is it a bs excuse? Yes. Do i think that Russia will stop the war even if Zelensky agreed to Putin's terms? Nope, i think his plan is to create a "Ukraine wide" buffer zone and then maybe deal with the baltics when he feels Russia is strong again.

    Btw, i blame NATO for this shitty situation we are in, if you are wondering. This s*itty organization is bringing the world closer to the abyss every passing day.

  4. #39044
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    If Putin wants a better chance of a miracle of Ukraine accepting a deal about ceded areas (not fully occupied even!), perhaps Putin should first make the war go so wonderfully well for him that his demands aren't laughed out of the negotation table on the first second.
    I don't see that Putin currently wants negotiations.
    I think his current plans are play the long game and hope that Ukraine either gives up internally due to them burning through their young, male population or the West giving up support / forcing a settlement.

    I think that Putin doesn't want to appear completely unreasonable (as in declining any sort of negotiation) but rather be open for negotiations but then make unreasonable demands that negotiations will not happen.
    Which is frankly not an uncommon strategy, when we have a customer wants us to develop something technically barely feasible (where Design / R&D knows it'll be a huge pain), Sales & Marketing simply jacks up the price to a point where we would still come out ahead regardless of all the trouble it involves or customer simply then declines the offer.

    At face value, it makes little difference but there is a difference between "no, fuck off" and "okay, that's our price. What? It's too high? Agh, too bad".

  5. #39045
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    I think that NATO is the most important reason and waaay second comes the Russian speaking population.
    Why didn't Putin say so when he first invaded, then? NATO came later after the whole nazi bit fell apart.

    Also, those Russian speaking Ukrainians are still Ukrainians living in Ukraine. Not Daddy Vladdy's kids.

    Also, NATO is not an offensive organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Either way, the local population had a bad time with the neo nazis of the Azov battalion. We have had multiple people from Marioupolis coming live in Greek TV saying that they fear for their lives because of them. Most of our parliament also recognizes them as Nazis, so i guess its a common knowledge here at Greece that there was a right wing problem in Ukraine.
    Allegedly*

    And again, that remains a Ukrainian problem, not a Russian problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Now, is all of Ukraine run by Nazis? Nope. Is it a bs excuse? Yes. Do i think that Russia will stop the war even if Zelensky agreed to Putin's terms? Nope, i think his plan is to create a "Ukraine wide" buffer zone and then maybe deal with the baltics when he feels Russia is strong again.
    Ok so it's actually a war of aggression that Putin wants even though you said he didn't want it. Trying to follow your talking points as they morph from post to post is challenging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Btw, i blame NATO for this shitty situation we are in, if you are wondering. This s*itty organization is bringing the world closer to the abyss every passing day.
    Yes, we know you seem to uncritically repeat Russian misinformation all the time. Tell us something new.

    Also, notice how Russia is one of the only nations with this specific problem and gee I wonder when y'all will start to wonder if the reason that all of Russia's former vassal states that are now on its border are running to western alliances and treaties is because those are all better, safer deals for those nations than closer ties with their largest geographic neighbor.

  6. #39046
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's a domestic Ukranian issue.

    I thought Putin didn't want to start a war? Why start one he didn't want to start? Why remain in one he didn't want to start?

    So was it to denazify Ukraine? Was it because of NATO? Was it because of Ukrainians being mean to some of their own? The rotating door of reasons is confusing since we never know which one we're supposed to take seriously at any given moment.

    Consistency is not thy name.
    Something last Edge, we absolutely knew how the Russians would react if Ukraine ever tried to join NATO and we knew that the Russians view NATO's expansion as an existential threat.
    Scholars and academics to ambassadors and generals have said it. This is a nice read. We chose to ignore, and do what we do the best: Give the money to arms dealers rather to the poor and those in need, to science, medical research and space exploration. It's a never ending cycle of capitalistic greed.

  7. #39047
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Btw, i blame NATO for this shitty situation we are in, if you are wondering. This s*itty organization is bringing the world closer to the abyss every passing day.
    Again, NATO is just a mutual defense pact. If you're not planning on attacking a current or prospective NATO member, their proximity to you is irrelevant. There are no reasonable grounds to blame NATO for anything happening in Eastern Europe. It's entirely down to Russian expansionist dreams and their complete inability to actually uphold their end of their own aggression.

    Cripes, they've lost nearly a third of their navy to a country that doesn't have a navy.
    Last edited by Endus; 2024-06-14 at 08:58 PM.


  8. #39048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Something last Edge, we absolutely knew how the Russians would react if Ukraine ever tried to join NATO and we knew that the Russians view NATO's expansion as an existential threat.
    Scholars and academics to ambassadors and generals have said it. This is a nice read. We chose to ignore, and do what we do the best: Give the money to arms dealers rather to the poor and those in need, to science, medical research and space exploration. It's a never ending cycle of capitalistic greed.
    "Russia's justified in their invasion because NATO spends any amount of money on Military rather than give it away to the poor and needy" is certainly a... take. I won't say it's the dumbest one, but it probably clears the top five, easy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's entirely down to Russian expansionist dreams and their complete inability to actually uphold their end of their own aggression.
    But Endus, Soft Power and Diplomacy are for cucks and nerds. Everyone knows the best way to rule over... erm, 'make friends with' neighboring countries are to beat them into submission or threaten to beat them into submission if they don't give you every single thing you want.

    ...Wait why are all these ungrateful countries suddenly trying to cozy up with the west, and why are the westerners forming an Anti-Me alliance? It must be a dastardly plot to undermine my awesomeness, and not because I've been a violent, unlikable dipshit for almost a hundred and fifty years.

  9. #39049
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Something last Edge, we absolutely knew how the Russians would react if Ukraine ever tried to join NATO and we knew that the Russians view NATO's expansion as an existential threat.
    Putin*

    And that's tough shit for Russia. Again, no curiosity for why a nations territorial neighbors would seek to forge relations with competing nations/alliances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Scholars and academics to ambassadors and generals have said it. This is a nice read. We chose to ignore, and do what we do the best: Give the money to arms dealers rather to the poor and those in need, to science, medical research and space exploration. It's a never ending cycle of capitalistic greed.
    So a diplomatic report about Russian government opposition to Ukraine joining NATO. Who are these scholars and academics and generals, then?

    Arms dealers? What are you talking about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, NATO is just a mutual defense pact. If you're not planning on attacking a current or prospective NATO member, their proximity to you is irrelevant. There are no reasonable grounds to blame NATO for anything happening in Eastern Europe. It's entirely down to Russian expansionist dreams and their complete inability to actually uphold their end of their own aggression.

    Cripes, they've lost nearly a third of their navy to a country that doesn't have a navy.
    It's funny because again there's still zero curiosity for why Ukraine might want to join NATO over retaining close ties to their neighbors in Russia.

    There's always the, "Well what if China put bases in Mexico!?" bad faith question and like my dude if the US has so thoroughly wrecked our relationship with our neighbor on the southern border that they feel that pivoting to aligning themselves with China and the Chinese view of the world is their best bet then we've monumentally fucked up.

  10. #39050
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    @Ultima

    What's wrong bud, you brought up the Minsk agreements as a gotcha but don't seem to wanna talk about the topic.

  11. #39051
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    We have had multiple people from Marioupolis coming live in Greek TV saying that they fear for their lives because of them.
    The tiny Avoz Battalion is scary?

    Is it more or less scary than the Russians destroying 93% of Mariupol?

  12. #39052
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Do i think that Russia will stop the war even if Zelensky agreed to Putin's terms? Nope, i think his plan is to create a "Ukraine wide" buffer zone and then maybe deal with the baltics when he feels Russia is strong again.
    I really hope you get paid for posting stuff like this. Because if this (and everything else you post) is your actual opinion

  13. #39053
    Russia's joke of a peace proposal is just a giant facepalm. I really do hope we(usa) provide Ukraine an insane amount of shit for the upcoming f16's. I also hope there can be a lot of stuff passed that is immune to anything that can be done if Trump gets elected.

  14. #39054
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    Man, have you set up a trap for yourself with this, Ulmita. I was lucky to check these forums today to see this blunder:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Question: Do you believe that the people in eastern Ukraine were having a bad bad time from right wing Ukrainian elements? Or is this something that "Puttler" came up with?
    Answer: as a person from (de jure) eastern Ukraine, I not just "believe", I know with 100% certainty that people here did not have any trouble whatsoever from those imaginary east Ukrainian "right wing elements". Not here, absolutely not.

    The sort of opposite, in a super mild form, was kind of true: if you were a Ukrainian speaker in Donetsk, you were seen as "not ours" and would not get very far in our society (remember, we were the wealthy ones, not the westerners). But there was no actual animosity, marriages between "us" and "banderites" as people here semi-jokingly called them then, happened all the time; from my personal circle of acquaintances two people married western Ukrainians and moved there.

    So yes, Putin, or someone in his employ, came up with these lies about "bad bad time".
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc

  15. #39055
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    Man, have you set up a trap for yourself with this, Ulmita. I was lucky to check these forums today to see this blunder:


    Answer: as a person from (de jure) eastern Ukraine, I not just "believe", I know with 100% certainty that people here did not have any trouble whatsoever from those imaginary east Ukrainian "right wing elements". Not here, absolutely not.

    The sort of opposite, in a super mild form, was kind of true: if you were a Ukrainian speaker in Donetsk, you were seen as "not ours" and would not get very far in our society (remember, we were the wealthy ones, not the westerners). But there was no actual animosity, marriages between "us" and "banderites" as people here semi-jokingly called them then, happened all the time; from my personal circle of acquaintances two people married western Ukrainians and moved there.

    So yes, Putin, or someone in his employ, came up with these lies about "bad bad time".
    I'm happy to see you are still around.

  16. #39056
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    Man, have you set up a trap for yourself with this, Ulmita. I was lucky to check these forums today to see this blunder:


    Answer: as a person from (de jure) eastern Ukraine, I not just "believe", I know with 100% certainty that people here did not have any trouble whatsoever from those imaginary east Ukrainian "right wing elements". Not here, absolutely not.

    The sort of opposite, in a super mild form, was kind of true: if you were a Ukrainian speaker in Donetsk, you were seen as "not ours" and would not get very far in our society (remember, we were the wealthy ones, not the westerners). But there was no actual animosity, marriages between "us" and "banderites" as people here semi-jokingly called them then, happened all the time; from my personal circle of acquaintances two people married western Ukrainians and moved there.

    So yes, Putin, or someone in his employ, came up with these lies about "bad bad time".
    how is life over there? are you living in a occupied territory?

  17. #39057
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    Man, have you set up a trap for yourself with this, Ulmita. I was lucky to check these forums today to see this blunder:


    Answer: as a person from (de jure) eastern Ukraine, I not just "believe", I know with 100% certainty that people here did not have any trouble whatsoever from those imaginary east Ukrainian "right wing elements". Not here, absolutely not.

    The sort of opposite, in a super mild form, was kind of true: if you were a Ukrainian speaker in Donetsk, you were seen as "not ours" and would not get very far in our society (remember, we were the wealthy ones, not the westerners). But there was no actual animosity, marriages between "us" and "banderites" as people here semi-jokingly called them then, happened all the time; from my personal circle of acquaintances two people married western Ukrainians and moved there.

    So yes, Putin, or someone in his employ, came up with these lies about "bad bad time".
    I mean, we've had Ukrainan Greeks coming on live national TV saying that Azov is going around killing people and using citizens as human shields. This was all over the news. Is everyone lying to us?

    Greece should had sent army to evac them, but unfortunately we have idiots that govern us. Hopefully we get rid of this useless government soon.

    Use google translate: https://www.militaire.gr/ti-ginetai-...tagmatos-azof/
    Last edited by Ulmita; 2024-06-15 at 09:47 AM.

  18. #39058
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    I mean, we've had Ukrainan Greeks coming on live national TV saying that Azov is going around killing people and using citizens as human shields. This was all over the news. Is everyone lying to us?

    Greece should had sent army to evac them, but unfortunately we have idiots that govern us. Hopefully we get rid of this useless government soon.

    Use google translate: https://www.militaire.gr/ti-ginetai-...tagmatos-azof/
    The Greek ambassador there that we evacuated said that the Russians caused the problems and Ukrainians helped them with shelter and food and he did not see any nazis as you say so the ones you saw in tv were more likely propagandists, same goes for the pro-russian newspaper that you read, also there were some Greek-Ukrainians that fought along with the Ukrainian army and we saw them in our parliament, the reality is that none of us here in Greece know the truth about what is going on over there and I personally don't care about the minority over there. They have no business being there, they are not Greeks for me, they offer nothing to our country. They are mostly Eastern Rome empire remnants that are culturally much different than us, some of them can't even speak our language properly. That to be said, I would prefer if we remained neutral in this conflict, we have ventured too far into it with our military support to Ukraine, we even sent F16 trainers over there, this could get ugly for us without any real benefit from it since Ukraine would not do the same if we faced aggression from Turkey, they are in fact best friends with Turkey, so we win nothing but risk to lose a lot if we become a target for Putin and Russia has been historically more useful to us and important for our geopolitical position. They were our allies in any major conflict of the past including ww2. I don't think we would even exist without their wars against the nazis and ottomans.

    The real problem with this subforum is that people can't see that we have two equally evil factions that fight for dominance just like every other faction in human history, for them one is evil while the other is not and if you try to tell them that there is no good in this story, you are a Russian troll, they have forgot the wars their country did on africa and middle east for oil, how they exploit the resources over there, they don't even speak about the occupation of cyprus that they sponsored themselves, they forgot that the US saved many nazi criminals from trial and even let them keep all the goods that they stole from the countries they invaded and essentially the normandy invasion was more about saving germany from the soviets than liberating western europe. Get real people, Nato, US, West does not represent freedom, democracy. If US was in Russia's position it would do exactly the same and you wouldn't even comment about it here because when the US does it it's for democracy and liberty. Well there is no way to convince americans that their empire is no special from any before them until it crumbles and they enter into the losing side, then they will realize the harsh reality of things that everyone else has already seen. USA has some notable contributions to mankind but they have done nothing to promote true equality and liberty and be an example for everyone else to follow, we did not have such thing until now. We would not have this war if they didn't try so hard to bring Ukraine under their influence and expand their NATO bases over there. The only one I feel sorry for in this conflict are the Ukrainians who die so that two imperial powers realize their dreams.
    Last edited by Vampiregenesis; 2024-06-15 at 10:49 AM.

  19. #39059
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    So we're back to standard whataboutism...

  20. #39060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiregenesis View Post
    drivel
    "tHeRE ArE sOme VERy Bad pEoPLe ON BOtH siDeS"
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

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