Russian invasion of Ukraine

[En Sabah Nur]

Are there really still people out there that do not know what NATO actually is? Bewildering.

[Slirith]

Man, so many pages derailed by fools responding to the trolls.

[Saradain]

Man, so many pages derailed by fools responding to the trolls.

When the trolls roam free unpunished, it's more of a necessity to counter their propaganda and lies. If you let this thread fully be taken over by troll posts without "taking the bait", then it is as good as russian propaganda machine victory when one opinion (the pro-russian propaganda one) is the only one for gullible idiots to read.

[Cynep]

I'm happy to see you are still around.

Thank you. Keep up the good work

how is life over there? are you living in a occupied territory?

According to international law, yes. De facto, Donetsk was a breakaway region for ~9 years, now it's (according to Russian laws) part of Russia. Everything is slowly gradually being converted to Russian standards.

If we don't count the war front several km away (and no, Ukraine still doesn't shell Donetsk city), random blackouts and still insufficient water supply (water was coming via canal/pipes from territory still held by Ukraine), life here is meh. Typical depressive Russian periphery, I guess. No excitement or danger, people just survive.

I think that NATO is the most important reason and waaay second comes the Russian speaking population. Either way, the local population had a bad time with the neo nazis of the Azov battalion. We have had multiple people from Marioupolis coming live in Greek TV saying that they fear for their lives because of them. Most of our parliament also recognizes them as Nazis, so i guess its a common knowledge here at Greece that there was a right wing problem in Ukraine.

Cause and effect are opposite to what you say. Azov battalion was created on May 5 2014, when the war was already underway and the DPR had already been proclaimed. So, Azov battalion was created to fight the Russian invasion, not Russia invaded because Azov battalion existed (it didn't yet).

I obviously can't comment on Greek TV content, but here's a question: those specific people, out of many thousands of Greeks in a 500k city, were they being singled out for assisting Russia? The invading enemy during an ongoing war? That's not right or left wing, that's just how war is.

I mean, we've had Ukrainan Greeks coming on live national TV saying that Azov is going around killing people and using citizens as human shields. This was all over the news. Is everyone lying to us?

Greece should had sent army to evac them, but unfortunately we have idiots that govern us. Hopefully we get rid of this useless government soon.

Use google translate: https://www.militaire.gr/ti-ginetai-...tagmatos-azof/

The article you linked says it was Ukraine who somehow bombed the Mariupol theatre when the city was besieged (the one with word "children" clearly visible if anyone remembers that event). That's flat-earther level bollocks. Find something less insane as your argument, that author is not worth discussing.

[Belize]

Are there really still people out there that do not know what NATO actually is? Bewildering.

Ultima and his kin know what NATO is, it's just that they have to lie about it to justify continuing Russian aggression

[Karreck]

This needs to stop ASAP before it gets completely out of hand.

Russia can just, I don't know, stop attacking Ukraine? Russia can pull out of Ukrainian territory (including Crimea) at anytime to end this conflict.

[Vampiregenesis]

Russia can just, I don't know, stop attacking Ukraine? Russia can pull out of Ukrainian territory (including Crimea) at anytime to end this conflict.

If they do that, they take the risk to have to deal with an invasion or a deadly political unrest inside their country from a far more disadvantageous position after all they used Ukraine as a buffer state and strategic depth throughout their entire history. It will take time of course to happen but it will definitely happen because well....it already happened in some countries where NATO got a good foothold. Even if it never happens and Russia lives in peace, can you blame them for thinking like this after all they have seen until now?

I'm not saying that Russia doesn't exploit this opportunity to grab some territory but the reasoning or excuse they use for this can still be right. Imagine Russian bases being built on the border of US with Mexico, that would be unspeakable wouldn't it? why the opposite is not?

In b4, someone calls me a Russian troll or talk about whataboutism. I know its not good and I'm telling this as someone coming from a country that had its own empires before, it sucks when others who belong to different racial/cultural backgrounds can do the same things and disrupt you.

Just to counter this point, as someone said the US can get NATO back to 1990 borders, leave completely any influence in Ukraine and peace will still happen. You can also leave a bunch of other countries while you are at it.

[Saradain]

If they do that, they take the risk to have to deal with an invasion or a deadly political unrest inside their country from a far more disadvantageous position after all they used Ukraine as a buffer state and strategic depth throughout their entire history. It will take time of course to happen but it will definitely happen because well....it already happened in some countries where NATO got a good foothold. Even if it never happens and Russia lives in peace, can you blame them for thinking like this after all they have seen until now?

I'm not saying that Russia doesn't exploit this opportunity to grab some territory but the reasoning or excuse they use for this can still be right. Imagine Russian bases being built on the border of US with Mexico, that would be unspeakable wouldn't it? why the opposite is not?

In b4, someone calls me a Russian troll or talk about whataboutism. I know its not good and I'm telling this as someone coming from a country that had its own empires before, it sucks when others who belong to different racial/cultural backgrounds can do the same things and disrupt you.

Just to counter this point, as someone said the US can get NATO back to 1990 borders, leave completely any influence in Ukraine and peace will still happen. You can also leave a bunch of other countries while you are at it.

Who will invade Russia? Do elaborate.

What does NATO have to do with the US? NATO doesn't aggressively expand on its own. Nations apply to join NATO precisely because Russia is so aggressive. Obviously you want "NATO to leave bunch of other countries" to ruin its reputation and let Russia know it's far safer to invade said countries now

[Karreck]

If they do that, they take the risk to have to deal with an invasion or a deadly political unrest inside their country from a far more disadvantageous position after all they used Ukraine as a buffer state and strategic depth throughout their entire history. It will take time of course to happen but it will definitely happen because well....it already happened in some countries where NATO got a good foothold. Even if it never happens and Russia lives in peace, can you blame them for thinking like this after all they have seen until now?

I don't give a shit what Ukraine was in Russia's past. Today, Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can decide for itself the level of relationship it wants to have with European nations. Russia does not get to invade a sovereign nation just because they need a security blanket against the meanie face West.
Russia started this bullshit. Russia can end it by leaving Ukraine alone.

I'm not saying that they don't exploit this opportunity to grab some territory but the reasoning or excuse can still be right. Imagine Russian bases being built on the border of US with Mexico, that would be unspeakable wouldn't it? why the opposite is not?

And that still wouldn't give America justification to invade Mexico.

In b4, someone calls me a Russian troll or talk about whataboutism. I know its not good and I'm telling this as someone coming from a country that had its own empires before, it sucks when others who belong to different racial/cultural backgrounds can do the same things and disrupt you.

You may or may not be a Russian troll, but you certainly do run interference for them a lot. You also parrot their disinformation/misinformation.

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,......you know the rest.

Just to counter this point, as someone said the US can get NATO back to 1990 borders, leave completely any influence in Ukraine and peace will still happen. You can also leave a bunch of other countries while you are at it.

Those nations want to be in NATO and Ukraine wants relationships with America. Sovereign nations are allowed to build diplomatic ties as they see fit.

Russia could also not be aggressive douche-bags to their neighbors. Makes people nervous and, surprise surprise, seek relationships with other nations that are not dicks to them.

[Vampiregenesis]

Who will invade Russia? Do elaborate.

What does NATO have to do with the US? NATO doesn't aggressively expand on its own. Nations apply to join NATO precisely because Russia is so aggressive. Obviously you want "NATO to leave bunch of other countries" to ruin its reputation and let Russia know it's far safer to invade said countries now

If this is true then why you haven't been invaded until now? It could be true but reality says otherwise, therefore what you are saying is simply paranoia, the last time Russia invaded you was during Stalin more than 80 years before, I don't know why this happened however we haven't heard of any expansion plans about Russia in your territory, now yes you are threatened because you decided to join an aggressive and military alliance for no reason. You take the risk to have your country being decimated from paranoid putin for no reason at all.

Nations are allowed to decide their fate but when they decide to join a dangerous alliance that has an agenda against specific countries and overall very bad reputation, then these nations should understand that they take the risk and commit themselves to a specific side that might be attacked by the opposing one.

Is it a bad choice? not necessary but it's a risky one and you should grow up and understand that once you do, you have now become a part of a geopolitical conflict so you have to take the consequences without crying. My country is part of NATO as well, so if Putin bomb us tomorrow, I won't be surprised nor crying about it, it would make sense since we decided to be part of his opponents in this conflict. Can you accept it as normal just like I do?

[Saradain]

If this is true then why you haven't been invaded until now? It could be true but reality says otherwise, therefore what you are saying is simply paranoia, the last time Russia invaded you was during Stalin more than 80 years before, I don't know why this happened however we haven't heard of any expansion plans about Russia in your territory, now yes you are threatened because you decided to join an aggressive and military alliance for no reason. You take the risk to have your country being decimated from paranoid putin for no reason at all.

Nations are allowed to decide their fate but when they decide to join a dangerous alliance that has an agenda against specific countries and overall very bad reputation, then these nations should understand that they take the risk and commit themselves to a specific side that might be attacked by the opposing one.

Is it a bad choice? not necessary but it's a risky one and you should grow up and understand that once you do, you have now become a part of a geopolitical conflict so you have to take the consequences without crying. My country is part of NATO as well, so if Putin bomb us tomorrow, I won't be surprised nor crying about it, it would make sense since we decided to be part in this conflict. Can you accept it as normal just like I do?

You outed yourself as a troll. Finland applied to NATO because Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. Not before that, Finland didn't see a reason to join NATO before 2022. Should have joined in 2014 already if you ask me, but alas. You toppled your argument yourself.

You are trolling because you pretend NATO is an aggressive alliance. While Russia proving why Finland needed NATO somehow isn't aggressive and dangerous

And why didn't Russia try to invade Finland again after last time? Because Finland learned a lesson, Russia is very hostile, aggressive and dangerous, thus in addition to our very defensive border geography, we started preparing ever since for another war. Russia invaded Ukraine because they foolishly thought Ukraine is a pushover with no friends.

And since you are trolling and ignorant - Russia has done shit tons of hybrid warfare operations against Finland even we're NOT in war. Immigrants/refugees flowing through our borders from Russia, when Finland didn't agree to russian terms of whatever the fuck they want every now and then...Once russian-favored terms were approved, regarding visas, the flow of illegal immigrants just entirely stopped. GPS signal interference to this day, where commercial flights cannot land in eastern Finland at times because of the russian-originated signal jamming.

Wew lad, Russia sure loves to aggressively poke its neighbours for no reason, long before Finland ever looked at NATO.

[Vampiregenesis]

You outed yourself as a troll. Finland applied to NATO because Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. Not before that, Finland didn't see a reason to join NATO before 2022. Should have joined in 2014 already if you ask me, but alas. You toppled your argument yourself.

You are trolling because you pretend NATO is an aggressive alliance. While Russia proving why Finland needed NATO somehow isn't aggressive and dangerous

And why didn't Russia try to invade Finland again after last time? Because Finland learned a lesson, Russia is very hostile, aggressive and dangerous, thus in addition to our very defensive border geography, we started preparing ever since for another war. Russia invaded Ukraine because they foolishly thought Ukraine is a pushover with no friends.

And since you are trolling and ignorant - Russia has done shit tons of hybrid warfare operations against Finland even we're NOT in war. Immigrants/refugees flowing through our borders from Russia, when Finland didn't agree to russian terms of whatever the fuck they want every now and then...GPS signal interference to this day, where commercial flights cannot land in eastern Finland at times because of the russian-originated signal jamming.

Wew lad, Russia sure loves to aggressively poke its neighbours for no reason, long before Finland ever looked at NATO.

NATO is an aggressive alliance and US and NATO is the same thing, they run it and exploit it for their own gains. Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, Cyprus. NATO has a good record of invasions and decimations of several countries, these countries didn't simply lose, they were decimated and there is military presence there to guard the exploitation of the resources that these countries have. Syria was the turning point of these series of wars and expansions, if the Russians didn't intervene, the party would not end there. Can you deny history itself?

Russia invaded Ukraine for a variety of reasons, grabbing territory and expanding in an imperialistic manner using history as an excuse is one of them, however I don't think they would go through all of this if the west wasn't active in Ukraine.

[Saradain]

NATO is an aggressive an alliance and US and NATO is the same thing, they run it and exploit it for their own gains. Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, Cyprus. NATO has a good record of invasions and decimations of several countries, these countries didn't simply lose, they were decimated. Syria was the turning point of these series of wars and expansions, if the Russians didn't intervene, the party would not end there. Can you deny history itself?

Russia invaded Ukraine for a variety of reasons, grabbing territory and expanding in an imperialistic manner using history as an excuse is one of them, however I don't think they would go through all of this if the west wasn't active in Ukraine.

NATO is what you think it is, because you said so. Gotcha. Convincing.

Do you know what UN Security Council mandate means? Do you, the fool, understand that RUSSIA IS PART OF THE SAID SECURITY COUNCIL. That means Russia itself approved NATO doing a peacekeeping operation in various nations, when requested...

God, you're so tiring with the inane trolling. NATO has never had any part of "decimating" anything. What US does, is US thing. US is not NATO, US is a member of NATO.

God, to weed through your propaganda. Yugoslavia was committing a genocide, but you think NATO was in the wrong to stop it. Vietnam...Didn't US lose that war? NATO did not participate in Vietnam. How come Vietnam was "not only losing, but decimated" when Vietnam didn't lose to the US? Are you saying US somehow has had military occupation in Vietnam after that war? Libya? NATO, once again, by UN security council mandate, to stop attacks against civilians, to have a ceasefire...

Shall we drop a list of what invasions Russia has done? Or are you gonna flee for weeks/months again?

[alach]

NATO is an aggressive alliance and US and NATO is the same thing, they run it and exploit it for their own gains. Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, Cyprus. NATO has a good record of invasions and decimations of several countries, these countries didn't simply lose, they were decimated and there is military presence there to guard the exploitation of the resources that these countries have. Syria was the turning point of these series of wars and expansions, if the Russians didn't intervene, the party would not end there. Can you deny history itself?

Russia invaded Ukraine for a variety of reasons, grabbing territory and expanding in an imperialistic manner using history as an excuse is one of them, however I don't think they would go through all of this if the west wasn't active in Ukraine.

Between this and Trumps rant involving sharks and batteries this week really feels like the crazies have dropped any mask of normalcy and have become proud of thier insanity. May God help the rest of us.

[Calfredd]

NATO is an aggressive alliance and US and NATO is the same thing, they run it and exploit it for their own gains. Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, Cyprus. NATO has a good record of invasions and decimations of several countries, these countries didn't simply lose, they were decimated and there is military presence there to guard the exploitation of the resources that these countries have. Syria was the turning point of these series of wars and expansions, if the Russians didn't intervene, the party would not end there. Can you deny history itself?

Russia invaded Ukraine for a variety of reasons, grabbing territory and expanding in an imperialistic manner using history as an excuse is one of them, however I don't think they would go through all of this if the west wasn't active in Ukraine.

You are ignorant and you are arrogant which makes a deadly combination where you are proud of your ignorance and your lack of knowledge and shun and revile those who try to educate you (including an actual Finland resident when talking about Finland). As I'm not a mod I can't make you quit the thread but I will still suggest you back off and try to learn; discussions are so much more pleasant and smooth when people discuss things they actually know something about. This goes for Ulmita and YUPPIE as well.

[Vampiregenesis]

NATO is what you think it is, because you said so. Gotcha. Convincing.

Do you know what UN Security Council mandate means? Do you, the fool, understand that RUSSIA IS PART OF THE SAID SECURITY COUNCIL. That means Russia itself approved NATO doing a peacekeeping operation in various nations, when requested...

God, you're so tiring with the inane trolling. NATO has never had any part of "decimating" anything. What US does, is US thing. US is not NATO, US is a member of NATO.

Well, if US has plans to hurt Russia in the future, would it be easier to do so with a Russia influenced Ukraine or a West influenced Ukraine with NATO bases into it? (even if other NATO countries do not participate into this) I mean it's just pure logic. Putin is not so paranoid about NATO for no reason at all.

Ok let's say that NATO didn't do the decimation but it was the US only alone, if you decide that these are your best friends and that you want their influence in your country you are still part of something very dangerous even if it's not NATO itself.

[Saradain]

Well, if US has plans to hurt Russia in the future, would it be easier to do so in a Russia influenced Ukraine or a West influenced Ukraine with NATO bases into it? I mean it's just pure logic. Putin is not so paranoid about NATO for no reason at all.

Russia is the one invading, genociding, committing Nazi acts but NATO is the dangerous one. Well done Ivan, the employee of the month is you. Ulmita needs to be more active to compete next time.

Your pure logic. Imaginary scenarios. What if this, what if that. What if Russia wanted to invade Finland after Ukraine? According to your pure logic, Finland was right to join NATO and NATO was right to see Finland as a useful ally.

NATO has been a saviour for multiple nations bordering with Russia. I'm sure you got some made-up lists of anti-Russia invasions by Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, hell Ukraine itself...

[Vampiregenesis]

Shall we drop a list of what invasions Russia has done? Or are you gonna flee for weeks/months again?

Our big difference is that I don't deny the atrocities that any party has committed, I know very well that Russians are not saints, it's you who act as if the West are saints and you call me a troll when I take a neutral position and talk bad for either side.

[Saradain]

Ok let's say that NATO didn't do the decimation but it was the US only alone, if you decide that these are your best friends and that you want their influence in your country you are still part of something very dangerous even if it's not NATO itself.

Well dumdum, Russia is the one who committed multiple atrocities against european nations, while US committed none. Why should Russia have any friends given their actual history of evil?

Lol, rules for thee but not for me.

- - - Updated - - -

Our big difference is that I don't deny the atrocities that any party has committed, I know very well that Russians are not saints, it's you who act as if the West are saints and you call me a troll when I take a neutral position and talk bad for either side.

I never said the evil West is a saint? But then, do list actual wrongs that european nations committed, don't bother with UN mandate ones via NATO's help.

You literally deny everything Russia has done and blame people for wanting safety xD

[Odinfrost]

Will technically count as an opinion, but the Danish Prime Minister believe that Russia doesn't want peace.