Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Ulmita]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/u...mes-baker.html



This is like the people desperately trying to say that the Civil War was about "states rights and had nothing to do with slavery".

Even Pizza Hut man, who was directly involved, says you're wrong lol.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-wouldnt-23629

And let me quote:

As the newly declassified documents show, the Russians might have had a point. While it was previously understood that Secretary of State James Baker’s assurance to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand “not one inch eastward” during a February 9, 1990, meeting was only in the context of German reunification, the new documents show that this was not the case.

Gorbachev only accepted German reunification—over which the Soviet Union had a legal right to veto under treaty—because he received assurances that NATO would not expand after he withdrew his forces from Eastern Europe from James Baker, President George H.W. Bush, West German foreign minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, the CIA Director Robert Gates, French President Francois Mitterrand, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, British foreign minister Douglas Hurd, British Prime Minister John Major, and NATO secretary-general Manfred Woerner.

Indeed, as late as March 1991, the British were reassuring Gorbachev that they could not foresee circumstances under which NATO might expand into Eastern and Central Europe. As former British Ambassador to the Soviet Union recounted in March 5, 1991, Rodric Braithwaite, both British foreign minister Douglas Hurd and British Prime Minister John Major told the Soviet that NATO would not expand eastwards.

[Endus]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/u...mes-baker.html

This is like the people desperately trying to say that the Civil War was about "states rights and had nothing to do with slavery".

Even Pizza Hut man, who was directly involved, says you're wrong lol.

Even if he were, right, he's trying to reference an unofficial promise made to a nation that ceased to exist in 1991. Even if that promise existed prior, it would have ceased to have any application once the Soviet Union collapsed. An agreement between two parties ceases to matter if one of the parties no longer exists. If I tell my buddy he can have a key to my place and come over whenever he likes, if he dies that doesn't mean whoever gets ahold of that key has the same privilege.

[Saradain]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-wouldnt-23629

And let me quote:

Where is this Soviet Union now that you claim a promise was made to? Or does "NATO disband cus no Soviet Union" logic not apply to anything that is used against you?

No Soviet Union, the alleged promise expired. All is well.

[Edge-]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-wouldnt-23629

And let me quote:

You are arguing with a literal participant in the agreement.

I'm gonna listen to the guy involved, not the rando in this forum who's been slinging a whole lot of debunked misinformation already.

[Endus]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-wouldnt-23629

And let me quote:

Again, completely irrelevant. Even if such an unofficial promise were made (and if it's not a signed treaty, it's not real), that agreement would have ceased to exist the moment the Soviet Union came to an end. It can't be presumed to mean NATO would never expand eastward ever even after the Soviet Union was gone. It was not an agreement with modern Russia. You don't have any argument, here.

Especially since NATO is not expansionist. NATO only expands when other countries request to join NATO, and even there, there's often internal resistance to letting them in.

[MCMLXXXII]

How many countries have been forced to join NATO after it started? How many countries were invaded by the Soviet Union or its successor, the Russian state after NATO was founded?
One of the answers is zero, and spoiler alert, it's not the latter.

[Jessicka]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-wouldnt-23629

And let me quote:

Until NATO was forced to intervene in the former Yugoslavia there were very legitimate questions being raised around NATOs continuing existence. Then Russia had to back a genocidal Serbian army and show it was going to continue to be a problem for European security for just a while longer.

[Ulmita]

You are arguing with a literal participant in the agreement.

I'm gonna listen to the guy involved, not the rando in this forum who's been slinging a whole lot of debunked misinformation already.

You should read all the nationalinterest article. It's not only Gorbachev but also Yeltsin. Even if Gorbachev misinterpreted 1990, there are other cases too.
Lastly, this one also explains it a lot:

https://warontherocks.com/2019/11/pr...-it-matters-2/

Mind you nationalinterest.org and wsrontherocks are very hawkish American sites

- - - Updated - - -

Again, completely irrelevant. Even if such an unofficial promise were made (and if it's not a signed treaty, it's not real), that agreement would have ceased to exist the moment the Soviet Union came to an end. It can't be presumed to mean NATO would never expand eastward ever even after the Soviet Union was gone. It was not an agreement with modern Russia. You don't have any argument, here.

Especially since NATO is not expansionist. NATO only expands when other countries request to join NATO, and even there, there's often internal resistance to letting them in.

It might be irrelevant to us but apparently it isn't for them. When we started putting up the ABM shield in Europe do you remember what the Russians did? They complained.
How about after? They asked us to be part of it and we declined. And after that? They asked us to sign documents that would legally bound us to give them guarantees to not use it against them. And ofc we declined.

Do you know that the mk-41 vls that we put in Romania for the antibalistic shield can also shoot tomahawks, yes those nuclear capable missiles? Do you know what the Russians said when they complained about it? Nothing at all, we downplayed it and ignored them.

There are countless such examples of us ignoring their worries. Can you see now why RU is paroid about NATO?

We go: It's anyone's right to join, They go full paranoia mode, we ignore them and now the innocent pay the price. This is the reason that I say that NATO needs to disband. It's useless and only serves the big arms dealers.


Infracted.

[Endus]

You should read all the nationalinterest article. It's not only Gorbachev but also Yeltsin. Even if Gorbachev misinterpreted 1990, there are other cases too.
Lastly, this one also explains it a lot:

https://warontherocks.com/2019/11/pr...-it-matters-2/

Mind you nationalinterest.org and wsrontherocks are very hawkish American sites

It certainly doesn't support your wild and baseless claims. Also, when it comes to promises in closed-door meetings where nothing is actually written down and signed off on by both parties, those promises are worth exactly as much as the paper they're printed on. They're meaningless and non-binding and always prone to rapid change from either party as circumstances evolve.

- - - Updated - - -

It might be irrelevant to us but apparently it isn't for them.

No, it's meaningless for them, too. There was no binding agreement reached, and they know that. They just use it as an excuse to do whatever they were going to want to do anyway.

How about after? They asked us to be part of it and we declined. And after that? They asked us to sign documents that would legally bound us to give them guarantees to not use it against them. And ofc we declined.

Do you know that the mk-41 vls that we put in Romania for the antibalistic shield can also shoot tomahawks, yes those nuclear capable missiles? Do you know what the Russians said when they complained about it? Nothing at all, we downplayed it and ignored them.

There are countless such examples of us ignoring their worries. Can you see now why RU is paroid about NATO?

Not even a little bit. You're pointing to defensive weaponry placed to prevent Russian expansionism as if they're a threat to Russia, and they aren't. If Russia were not planning to attack and conquer Central European nations to expand Russia's borders, nothing NATO does would affect them. But Russia was planning to do exactly that, which is both why those weapon systems were put in place and why Russia got butthurt about being pre-emptively stymied.

We go: It's anyone's right to join, They go full paranoia mode, we ignore them and now the innocent pay the price. This is the reason that I say that NATO needs to disband. It's useless and only serves the big arms dealers.

"How dare you defend yourselves from our aggression?! We'll just have to get more aggressive, then!"

This is not an argument made by a serious person. You're just being incredibly silly.

[Edge-]

You should read all the nationalinterest article.

Again, I'm less interested in what outsiders think of the specifics than I am with the participants involved.

NATO is not moving any further than the East German border. East Germany does not exist anymore. Unsure why you're still doubling down on this nonsense.

Up is down. Black is orange. Potato is rock.

[Jessicka]

You should read all the nationalinterest article. It's not only Gorbachev but also Yeltsin. Even if Gorbachev misinterpreted 1990, there are other cases too.
Lastly, this one also explains it a lot:

https://warontherocks.com/2019/11/pr...-it-matters-2/

Mind you nationalinterest.org and wsrontherocks are very hawkish American sites

- - - Updated - - -



It might be irrelevant to us but apparently it isn't for them. When we started putting up the ABM shield in Europe do you remember what the Russians did? They complained.
How about after? They asked us to be part of it and we declined. And after that? They asked us to sign documents that would legally bound us to give them guarantees to not use it against them. And ofc we declined.

Do you know that the mk-41 vls that we put in Romania for the antibalistic shield can also shoot tomahawks, yes those nuclear capable missiles? Do you know what the Russians said when they complained about it? Nothing at all, we downplayed it and ignored them.

There are countless such examples of us ignoring their worries. Can you see now why RU is paroid about NATO?

We go: It's anyone's right to join, They go full paranoia mode, we ignore them and now the innocent pay the price. This is the reason that I say that NATO needs to disband. It's useless and only serves the big arms dealers.

Eastern Europe saw what Serbia did in the former Yugoslavia, they saw what Russia did in Chechnya, and they decided they didn’t want that. So they joined NATO. Even now they see what Russia is doing in Ukraine and Georgia, and still don’t want a part of it.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Ukraine is just a culmination of a conflict Russia has been fighting for for years. We just largely ignored it until it came to that. The bigger argument in the future is whether we should have appeased it for so long.

[alach]

Let's please not pretend like russia hasn't given the rest of the world thousands of reasons over decades and decades not to trust them at their word. Russias corruption is a way of life, they are taught to lie and cheat, they can't get offended when others don't want to act the same way. Yet they do.

[Wilian]

Let's please not pretend like russia hasn't given the rest of the world thousands of reasons over decades and decades not to trust them at their word. Russias corruption is a way of life, they are taught to lie and cheat, they can't get offended when others don't want to act the same way. Yet they do.

Make that centuries.

[Xyonai]

Let's please not pretend like russia hasn't given the rest of the world thousands of reasons over decades and decades not to trust them at their word. Russias corruption is a way of life, they are taught to lie and cheat, they can't get offended when others don't want to act the same way. Yet they do.

Yeah I was gonna say... maybe there's a reason a lot of Ex Soviet States and Russian Neighbors either don't want to (re)join Russia's sphere of Influence or actively seek Anti-Russian defense pacts.

Maybe those flimsy, nonsensical reasons Putin keeps putting forward for why he had no choice but to invade Ukraine and the fact the Russian war doctrine seems to be built on indiscriminately murdering and/or raping the local population can give us some kind of clue.

[diller]

You should read all the nationalinterest article. It's not only Gorbachev but also Yeltsin. Even if Gorbachev misinterpreted 1990, there are other cases too.

Please link to the treaty where 'we' promised anything about NATO - talks between two leaders are just that... talk.

[Dontrike]

If this is true then why you haven't been invaded until now? It could be true but reality says otherwise, therefore what you are saying is simply paranoia, the last time Russia invaded you was during Stalin more than 80 years before, I don't know why this happened however we haven't heard of any expansion plans about Russia in your territory, now yes you are threatened because you decided to join an aggressive and military alliance for no reason. You take the risk to have your country being decimated from paranoid putin for no reason at all.

Nations are allowed to decide their fate but when they decide to join a dangerous alliance that has an agenda against specific countries and overall very bad reputation, then these nations should understand that they take the risk and commit themselves to a specific side that might be attacked by the opposing one.

Is it a bad choice? not necessary but it's a risky one and you should grow up and understand that once you do, you have now become a part of a geopolitical conflict so you have to take the consequences without crying. My country is part of NATO as well, so if Putin bomb us tomorrow, I won't be surprised nor crying about it, it would make sense since we decided to be part of his opponents in this conflict. Can you accept it as normal just like I do?

You're an awful actor, you could at least proofread the scripts you're given by your manager and take out the lies. "People will call me a Russian stooge" keeps happening because you're obviously a fan of Russia to the point that seeing people defend against them as some sort of violence on Russia in any way. Mayhaps rethink some things and people won't call you that.

[Vampiregenesis]

You're an awful actor, you could at least proofread the scripts you're given by your manager and take out the lies. "People will call me a Russian stooge" keeps happening because you're obviously a fan of Russia to the point that seeing people defend against them as some sort of violence on Russia in any way. Mayhaps rethink some things and people won't call you that.

No, you are a US nationalist and you have been grown as such, if you see a different opinion that doesn't praise your state it means that its a pro-Russia opinion. I was born in a country in European Union while you probably born in US so the world that we see and experience is completely different, it's impossible for you to understand me, I don't like Putin, I just hate the hypocrisy of the west. Did you know that the US set up a Junta in my country that tortured and killed many and that also along with NATO created a disaster in Cyprus? I mean, we have been in a similar position like the one Ukraine is now, they tried to use us in the past for their goals and they still do. It's not Russia that did this, IT WAS THE WEST. I feel extremely bad for the Ukrainians that are being used as pawns now and they will swim in debt afterwards having all their resources being extracted. There is not a good scenario for them right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they side with Putin just so that they escape the hell that awaits them afterwards having to deal with debt, funds and so on. Many Ukrainians already are with Putin but what do you know about them living in a continent far away? For me, they are on my neighborhood, their mindset is similar to those living in the balkans and I bet many of them not only hate Russia but also the west. Did you know that I have paid and supported many Ukrainians during the war because along with Russians, they are my primary suppliers? I talked with many of them about their experience with the war, I even know when they cut their power and for how many hours. I don't really hate the US, after all they are my best customers and I wouldn't survive if they didn't pay me but they are so ignorant about many things far from their continent.

Generally, most in the balkans don't like Putin and we are well aware about the Russian mentality, they are not new to us, they have always been like this, however we don't like the west either, we don't like globalization and this brutal capitalist system that took away our old lifestyles, back in the day before eurozone we were still poor but we had an infrastructure and we could live, now we can no longer live, we are paying for stuff at the same price that a german does even thought our average income is far less, foreigners come to live here and inflate real estate prices, our best and most educated people leave easily, we are seeing swarms of refugees entering into our country (guess who created this crisis that forced them to flee), we are forced to pay for a very large debt that we opposed, our hospitals are decimated due to the crisis. In the 2015 referendum 60%+ in my country voted to quit eurozone and european union and we got betrayed, instead of leaving, we got another ill made loan, where is democracy and liberty? European Union is mostly a useless organization that doesn't even its own army and offers no hope for the future. It's just a money grab for the french and the germans who dominate its market. Our people are already slaves and are being oppressed by it.

Guess what, you as an american, this not the world that you see, so I don't like Putin but in the shadow of these things, I don't like the west either and I like the fact that is being challenged now which may force it to change for the better or be left in ruins. I wouldn't want to live in a world that the west remains the same uninterrupted, oh that would a real hell. Although it doesn't affect me as much since I'm a digital nomad compared to my fellow countrymen who work for the local market.

[Saradain]

No, you are a US nationalist and you have been grown as such, if you see a different opinion that doesn't praise your state it means that its a pro-Russia opinion. I was born in a country in European Union while you probably born in US so the world that we see and experience is completely different, it's impossible for you to understand me, I don't like Putin, I just hate the hypocrisy of the west. Did you know that the US set up a Junta in my country that tortured and killed many and that also along with NATO created a disaster in Cyprus? I mean, we have been in a similar position like the one Ukraine is now, they tried to use us in the past for their goals and they still do. It's not Russia that did this, IT WAS THE WEST. I feel extremely bad for the Ukrainians that are being used as pawns now and they will swim in debt afterwards having all their resources being extracted. There is not a good scenario for them right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they side with Putin just so that they escape the hell that awaits them afterwards having to deal with debt, funds and so on. Many Ukrainians already are with Putin but what do you know about them living in a continent far away? For me, they are on my neighborhood, their mindset is similar to those living in the balkans and I bet many of them not only hate Russia but also the west. Did you know that I have paid and supported many Ukrainians during the war because along with Russians, they are my primary suppliers? I talked with many of them about their experience with the war, I even know when they cut their power and for how many hours. I don't really hate the US, after all they are my best customers and I wouldn't survive if they didn't pay me but they are so ignorant about many things far from their continent.

Generally, most in the balkans don't like Putin and we are well aware about the Russian mentality, they are not new to us, they have always been like this, however we don't like the west either, we don't like globalization and this brutal capitalist system that took away our old lifestyles, back in the day before eurozone we were still poor but we had an infrastructure and we could live, now we can no longer live, we are paying for stuff at the same price that a german does even thought our average income is far less, foreigners come to live here and inflate real estate prices, our best and most educated people leave easily, we are seeing swarms of refugees entering into our country (guess who created this crisis that forced them to flee), we are forced to pay for a very large debt that we opposed, our hospitals are decimated due to the crisis. In the 2015 referendum 60%+ in my country voted to quit eurozone and european union and we got betrayed, instead of leaving, we got another ill made loan. European Union is mostly a useless organization that doesn't even its own army and offers no hope for the future. It's just a money grab for the french and the germans who dominate its market.

Guess what, you as an american, this not the world that you see, so I don't like Putin but in the shadow of these things, I don't like the west either and I like the fact that is being challenged now which may force it to change for the better, I wouldn't want to live in a world that the west remains the same uninterrupted, oh that would a real hell. Although it doesn't affect me as much since I'm a digital nomad compared to my fellow countrymen.

Yet you see reasons to utterly lie about what NATO is and what is its purpose. And you think people need to accept they deserve to die in a war because their nation sought shelter from a conflict they, or NATO is not even part of. And other drivel you made up on the spot that you couldn't help but to haphazardly add NATO as participants of...

Were you from Romania? Do elaborate what is this "junta" the US set up in your country. And do provide actual proof of this mysterious genocide-sounding event.

Weird, literally googling "Did NATO create a disaster in Cyprus" brings this as first result...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_problem

And nothing there indicates NATO has created, or even been a part of this imaginary thing of yours.

[Dontrike]

No, you are a US nationalist and you have been grown as such, if you see a different opinion that doesn't praise your state it means that its a pro-Russia opinion. I was born in a country in European Union while you probably born in US so the world that we see and experience is completely different, it's impossible for you to understand me, I don't like Putin, I just hate the hypocrisy of the west. Did you know that the US set up a Junta in my country that tortured and killed many and that also along with NATO created a disaster in Cyprus? I mean, we have been in a similar position like the one Ukraine is now, they tried to use us in the past for their goals and they still do. It's not Russia that did this, IT WAS THE WEST. I feel extremely bad for the Ukrainians that are being used as pawns now and they will swim in debt afterwards having all their resources being extracted. There is not a good scenario for them right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they side with Putin just so that they escape the hell that awaits them afterwards having to deal with debt, funds and so on. Many Ukrainians already are with Putin but what do you know about them living in a continent far away? For me, they are on my neighborhood, their mindset is similar to those living in the balkans and I bet many of them not only hate Russia but also the west. Did you know that I have paid and supported many Ukrainians during the war because along with Russians, they are my primary suppliers? I talked with many of them about their experience with the war, I even know when they cut their power and for how many hours. I don't really hate the US, after all they are my best customers and I wouldn't survive if they didn't pay me but they are so ignorant about many things far from their continent.

Generally, most in the balkans don't like Putin and we are well aware about the Russian mentality, they are not new to us, they have always been like this, however we don't like the west either, we don't like globalization and this brutal capitalist system that took away our old lifestyles, back in the day before eurozone we were still poor but we had an infrastructure and we could live, now we can no longer live, we are paying for stuff at the same price that a german does even thought our average income is far less, foreigners come to live here and inflate real estate prices, our best and most educated people leave easily, we are seeing swarms of refugees entering into our country (guess who created this crisis that forced them to flee), we are forced to pay for a very large debt that we opposed, our hospitals are decimated due to the crisis. In the 2015 referendum 60%+ in my country voted to quit eurozone and european union and we got betrayed, instead of leaving, we got another ill made loan, where is democracy and liberty? European Union is mostly a useless organization that doesn't even its own army and offers no hope for the future. It's just a money grab for the french and the germans who dominate its market. Our people are already slaves and are being oppressed by it.

Guess what, you as an american, this not the world that you see, so I don't like Putin but in the shadow of these things, I don't like the west either and I like the fact that is being challenged now which may force it to change for the better or be left in ruins. I wouldn't want to live in a world that the west remains the same uninterrupted, oh that would a real hell. Although it doesn't affect me as much since I'm a digital nomad compared to my fellow countrymen who work for the local market.

That insane rambling boiled down to "No U" off the bat and then "I don't like other side, but let me list why everyone else is at fault and ignore Russia." Please, ask your manager for a better script.

[Saradain]

Even better Vampiregenesis, if you were from Greece instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta

So your claim is based on a conspiracy theory, for fucks sake