Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

No........

Yes, well, kinda, I'm definitely on the side of let's drop the pretense and unite into one country already and have our own European Army, but if the US, Canada, Turkey and the UK want to play along they are more than welcome. (added bonus? only one border to defend and that's a lot easier than the various territories.)

[diller]

Why do you think the US "might not be a trustworthy partner in the future" since they already are ? They do not care about EU about anything but selling stuff (preferably military equipment) to EU.

Trump obviously.

[Flarelaine]

There have been several warnings in the thread against derailing it by blaming it on someone else than the country starting it. It has been discussed to death already.

[Gigantique]

My mistake @Gigantique

All good, it speaks for itself that someone faking ignorance just to derail the conversation towards Nazi "codes" (using that term VERY generously) is something that could very well happen.

[Mayhem]

And about Russia, it is a bit more complicated than that.

come on, share your knowledge

[Specialka]

come on, share your knowledge

Mods already warned about talking about realpolitik.

[Mayhem]

Mods already warned about talking about realpolitik.

So conspiracy theories and made up shit not based on reality, got it.

[Surfd]

Yes, well, kinda, I'm definitely on the side of let's drop the pretense and unite into one country already and have our own European Army, but if the US, Canada, Turkey and the UK want to play along they are more than welcome. (added bonus? only one border to defend and that's a lot easier than the various territories.)

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAH What!?!?! Sorry mate, but Donald "likely the antichrist made flesh" Trump has a better chance of being the actual son of literal God than Europe does of "uniting into one country". Like, just never, EVER going to happen, short of the entire place being conquered by invading aliens or something.

[Iphie]

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAH What!?!?! Sorry mate, but Donald "likely the antichrist made flesh" Trump has a better chance of being the actual son of literal God than Europe does of "uniting into one country". Like, just never, EVER going to happen, short of the entire place being conquered by invading aliens or something.

Yeah, well, that's like, your opinion dude. Plenty of people I know share this goal, since it'll make life easier. But I do not see it happening during my lifetime, no.

[Kaleredar]

Yeah, well, that's like, your opinion dude. Plenty of people I know share this goal, since it'll make life easier. But I do not see it happening during my lifetime, no.

Lots of rulers have tried to unite Europe under one country.

Hitler, for one. Putin seems to be having a go at it right now.

[Corvus]

The purges continue. Pootie has sacked four more deputy defence ministers and replaced them with a female relative who got rich through corruption and nepotism and someone from the finance ministry who is the son of a pootie confidant. When dictators start surrounding themselves with loyalist yesmen with no experience in their new roles you know they are getting worried.

[Iphie]

Lots of rulers have tried to unite Europe under one country.

Hitler, for one. Putin seems to be having a go at it right now.

Yes, and none of those rulers had what the EU is now: a voluntary basis. It's like I said twenty five years ago to a teacher of mine, the EU project is the peaceful continuation of the past 2000 years of European history.

[Surfd]

Yeah, well, that's like, your opinion dude. Plenty of people I know share this goal, since it'll make life easier. But I do not see it happening during my lifetime, no.

"People" have shared that "goal" since practically as long as there have been people in Europe. Lots of them have even tried to make that goal a reality. It's been a couple thousand years, and none of them have ever succeeded. I'd lay even odds that in a couple thousand more, the result will be the same.

[diller]

Yeah, well, that's like, your opinion dude. Plenty of people I know share this goal, since it'll make life easier. But I do not see it happening during my lifetime, no.

Not going to happen, most of the smaller countries are not interested for obvious reasons - I think only Germany and France have been talking about it

[Yunru]

Oh boy ---- russans are sending now T-62 on battlefield. Maybe the ukraine attacking the refinerys had some serios effect as this tank can run on disel no problem.

[Iphie]

Oh boy ---- russans are sending now T-62 on battlefield. Maybe the ukraine attacking the refinerys had some serios effect as this tank can run on disel no problem.

Hadn't they been doing that for a while already?

[Azadina]

Oh boy ---- russans are sending now T-62 on battlefield. Maybe the ukraine attacking the refinerys had some serios effect as this tank can run on disel no problem.

They had already sent T-54's and T55's in as well. Just waiting on the T-34 now.

[Jessicka]

They had already sent T-54's and T55's in as well. Just waiting on the T-34 now.

They need to save that one for their parades.

[Elder Millennial]

Oh boy ---- russans are sending now T-62 on battlefield. Maybe the ukraine attacking the refinerys had some serios effect as this tank can run on disel no problem.

The T62 is actually really not as utterly horrible as it looks. They Re basically the same generation as the Leopard 1s.

The Ukrainians use them too. Both domestically upgraded ones and some modernized ones they got from the Czechs.

There's 5 things worth keeping in mind about the T62.

1. A shitty tank is better than no tank.
2. It's an extremely simple design, it's relatively easy to maintain and upgrade.
3. It has a 115mm smoothbore gun (the T55 has a rifled gun) that can fire APFSDS rounds, yes it's under gunned against a T72 and horribly undergunned against a Leopard or Abrams, the 115 is hella scary for infantry, MRAPS, Bradleys, Strykers, BMPs, M113s.
4. The ones the Russians are sending to Ukraine are the MV Obr 2022 variants. They basically have a new diesel engine, modern ERA and new sights with thermals.
5. About 22000 of these fucking things were built. Most of them are scrap metal or were exports, but the guestimates are that the Russians had about 2000 of them in deep storage. They pulled about an estimated 600 of them so far.

Would the Russians prefer to have T72s or 80s or something instead? Sure. But see point 1. It's still 600 to 2000 nasty metal boxes with a big ass gun on them that the Ukrainians have to kill.

[Iphie]

It's still 600 to 2000 nasty metal boxes with a big ass gun on them that the Ukrainians have to kill.

So a good afternoon's worth of work then?

I kid, I kid, but the fact does remain that it probably won't take too long to chew through these.

Also I'm not sure if the upgrades are very good...since you know corruption.

On a related note, anyone seen the russian sub in Cuba? That's not a great advertisement.