Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Ulmita]

When hatred of NATO blinds one so greatly...Not to mention the desire for multipolar world where the multiple poles include terrorist nations, human right violating communist dictatorships...

Some shitposters want to see the world burn.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but west is responsible for unimaginable horrors that took place in Middle East, Africa and Asia. It wasn't the rest, but us.

Also, NATO is an instrument of these horrific wars, bombings, coups etc that we did in so many countries, because it protects those countries that do those stuff.

Even now, in Ukraine war NATO's expansion is one of the main reasons that countless humans are perishing. Most of you are too brainwashed by our media to even realize what is happening, but it's ok, NATO's secretary general has said it already in public: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGepjsmKv/

As I said, the important thing is that world's majority both in population and in number of countries don't buy western propaganda.

NATO needs to either dissolve or go back to 1991 borders, ASAP. We should create our own EU army, capable of defending our borders and interests.

[Odinfrost]

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but west is responsible for unimaginable horrors that took place in Middle East, Africa and Asia. It wasn't the rest, but us.

Also, NATO is an instrument of these horrific wars, bombings, coups etc that we did in so many countries, because it protects those countries that do those stuff.

Even now, in Ukraine war NATO's expansion is one of the main reasons that countless humans are perishing. Most of you are too brainwashed by our media to even realize what is happening, but it's ok, NATO's secretary general has said it already in public: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGepjsmKv/

As I said, the important thing is that world's majority both in population and in number of countries don't buy western propaganda.

NATO needs to either dissolve or go back to 1991 borders, ASAP. We should create our own EU army, capable of defending our borders and interests.

We have an EU army. It's called NATO

[DarkTZeratul]

Even now, in Ukraine war NATO's expansion is one of the main reasons that countless humans are perishing. Most of you are too brainwashed by our media to even realize what is happening

Nah, the entire reason that countless humans are perishing in Ukraine is because Vladimir Putin wants to reestablish the USSR by conquering Russia's neighbors. NATO is merely one of the many excuses he's used for his unprovoked, unilateral invasion, and frankly isn't even the first excuse he used anyway, but the only way in which it's actually a reason for the war is that Putin desperately doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO because then he can't invade them without massive retaliation.

You keep twisting yourself into pretzels somehow pinning the blame on NATO despite the fact that it was Russia that invaded Ukraine all by themselves. NATO didn't force them to do it, and the shitty bullshit arguments to the contrary fundamentally require you to deny Ukraine's sovereignty in favor of treating them like a de facto vassal state of Russia that's somehow at fault for not doing what Putin says. It's exactly the same kind of victim blaming nonsense as claiming that it's a woman's fault her husband beats her when she doesn't have his dinner ready when he gets home from work, because that's the reality of marriage and you can't expect him to not to retaliate against her.

And to be clear, this isn't any kind of denial that "the west" (a nebulous geopolitical entity that doesn't actually exist outside the minds of Russians still stuck in the Cold War) has done shitty things. It's just acknowledging that the reality that this shitty thing is entirely and solely Russia's fault, no matter who else they try to blame for it.

[Specialka]

We have an EU army. It's called NATO

Nope, NATO is clearly not an EU army, since most of its personal, budget and equipment is american.

[diller]

since most of its personal, budget and equipment is american.

That is complete nonsense, NATO consists of the individual countries own military it's not some big pool that are paid into, you sound like it works how Trump and a lot of Americans thinks it works.

But yes the US is the biggest 'contributor' but only because they chose to spend that much ON THEIR OWN MILITARY.

[Ulmita]

Nah, the entire reason that countless humans are perishing in Ukraine is because Vladimir Putin wants to reestablish the USSR by conquering Russia's neighbors. NATO is merely one of the many excuses he's used for his unprovoked, unilateral invasion, and frankly isn't even the first excuse he used anyway, but the only way in which it's actually a reason for the war is that Putin desperately doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO because then he can't invade them without massive retaliation.

You keep twisting yourself into pretzels somehow pinning the blame on NATO despite the fact that it was Russia that invaded Ukraine all by themselves. NATO didn't force them to do it, and the shitty bullshit arguments to the contrary fundamentally require you to deny Ukraine's sovereignty in favor of treating them like a de facto vassal state of Russia that's somehow at fault for not doing what Putin says. It's exactly the same kind of victim blaming nonsense as claiming that it's a woman's fault her husband beats her when she doesn't have his dinner ready when he gets home from work, because that's the reality of marriage and you can't expect him to not to retaliate against her.

And to be clear, this isn't any kind of denial that "the west" (a nebulous geopolitical entity that doesn't actually exist outside the minds of Russians still stuck in the Cold War) has done shitty things. It's just acknowledging that the reality that this shitty thing is entirely and solely Russia's fault, no matter who else they try to blame for it.

Let me try to explain what is happening here with an example: You got a dude, a very paranoid one that keeps threatening that if you move close to him, he will smack you. You keep ignoring his threats and you keep moving closer and closer throughout few decades. At some point the dude looses it and attacks.

- Is the dude right to attack? Nope
- Did we know that he would attack? Yes, absolutely. We've been warned by politicians, ambassadors, military and scholars throughout the years.
- Is it our right to expand? It depends how you see it. I mean currently what we are telling the Russians is that it's their mistake for attacking, NATO expansion is a country's right to choose etc., but from the other hand if the same situation happened to the US all hell would break loose. Remember the Monroe doctrine? Remember what happened to Cuba? It's a ridiculous double standard based on western exceptionalism.

What is the optimal solution to Ukraine's war? Russia f#cks off and so does NATO and we all let the Ukrainians to prosper. We have a saying in Greek that goes: When elephants fight, the ants pay the price. This is what is happening to Ukraine.

NATO expansion = billions to the arms manufacturers > human lifes. War is good for business you see.

[Iphie]

Let me try to explain what is happening here with an example: You got a dude, a very paranoid one that keeps threatening that if you move close to him, he will smack you. You keep ignoring his threats and you keep moving closer and closer throughout few decades. At some point the dude looses it and attacks.

- Is the dude right to attack? Nope
- Did we know that he would attack? Yes, absolutely. We've been warned by politicians, ambassadors, military and scholars throughout the years.
- Is it our right to expand? It depends how you see it. I mean currently what we are telling the Russians is that it's their mistake for attacking, NATO expansion is a country's right to choose etc., but from the other hand if the same situation happened to the US all hell would break loose. Remember the Monroe doctrine? Remember what happened to Cuba? It's a ridiculous double standard based on western exceptionalism.

What is the optimal solution to Ukraine's war? Russia f#cks off and so does NATO and we all let the Ukrainians to prosper. We have a saying in Greek that goes: When elephants fight, the ants pay the price. This is what is happening to Ukraine.

NATO expansion = billions to the arms manufacturers > human lifes. War is good for business you see.

Just one problem here..."We" aren't moving closer, the neighbours are deciding to band together for protection from the other neighbour and that's their right.

Was/is the Monroe Doctrine a double standard? yeah, I'm not contesting that. Does that give russia the right to be an arse to it's neighbours? No of course not. Does Ukraine have the right to join NATO, yes. What does Ukraine want? to join NATO, that's what they think they need to prosper, so your much vaunted: "Ideally russia and NATO fuck off" completely ignores what UKRAINE wants, and is exactly (well more or less since russia is a sack of shit which wants to dominate) what russia wants. Funny that...

[Mekh]

Let me try to explain what is happening here with an example: You got a dude, a very paranoid one that keeps threatening that if you move close to him, he will smack you. You keep ignoring his threats and you keep moving closer and closer throughout few decades. At some point the dude looses it and attacks.

- Is the dude right to attack? Nope
- Did we know that he would attack? Yes, absolutely. We've been warned by politicians, ambassadors, military and scholars throughout the years.
- Is it our right to expand? It depends how you see it. I mean currently what we are telling the Russians is that it's their mistake for attacking, NATO expansion is a country's right to choose etc., but from the other hand if the same situation happened to the US all hell would break loose. Remember the Monroe doctrine? Remember what happened to Cuba? It's a ridiculous double standard based on western exceptionalism.

What is the optimal solution to Ukraine's war? Russia f#cks off and so does NATO and we all let the Ukrainians to prosper. We have a saying in Greek that goes: When elephants fight, the ants pay the price. This is what is happening to Ukraine.

NATO expansion = billions to the arms manufacturers > human lifes. War is good for business you see.

Moving in closer to get the hostages the mad man was holding was the right call. The more right call would have been to cap him from afar. Ignoring him and leaving him to threaten and occasionally rape his neighbours wasn't an option.

But your violent mad man rapist apologia is once again duly noted.

[MCMLXXXII]

It's like a neighborhood. There is one aggressive dude in the neighborhood who used to be landlord. And they know what a shitty landlord he was. They see that some people from another block have their own neighborhood watch. Knowing what a shitty guy the aggressive dude is, they are asking if the neighborhood watch can expand to their block. Because they'll know one of these days, the guy is going to lash out, no matter what they'll do.
So then the neighbor steals some other neighbors garden.

Well you know how the rest of it goes.

[Ulmita]

Moving in closer to get the hostages the mad man was holding was the right call. The more right call would have been to cap him from afar. Ignoring him and leaving him to threaten and occasionally rape his neighbours wasn't an option.

But your violent mad man rapist apologia is once again duly noted.

What part of Russia can f#ck off and that Ukraine is the victim here you didn't get exactly?

[Gorsameth]

What part of Russia can f#ck off and that Ukraine is the victim here you didn't get exactly?

The part where you keep trying to justify what Russia is doing.

The only reason NATO is moving east is because everyone west of Russia that isn't part of NATO yet desperate wants to be so they can escape from Russia's toxic abuse relationship.
This is 110% on Russia and how it has treated its neighbours since forever, and on no one else.

[Draco-Onis]

Frankly don't get the why they named this meeting a "peace summit" instead of just a Ukraine meeting. A peace summit would involve negotiations with all the main parties involved since Russia wasn't there seems it's just a meeting with Zelensky.

[Specialka]

That is complete nonsense, NATO consists of the individual countries own military it's not some big pool that are paid into, you sound like it works how Trump and a lot of Americans thinks it works.

But yes the US is the biggest 'contributor' but only because they chose to spend that much ON THEIR OWN MILITARY.

Thus making it far from being an EU army. You do realize you just validated what I said ?

[Nymrohd]

NATO is not an existential threat to Russia.
The Single Market ABSOLUTELY IS. The simple reality is, the moment a country enters the single market, harmonization and elimination of barriers to entry instantly means the non-EU equivalent goods are just not going to be competitive in that market. And barriers to entry are not just physical, they can go as far as infrastructure changes that would increasingly link market member states to have stronger infrastructure links to their neighbors since that is where the volume of goods moves to. Not only do logistical costs reduce for Single Market trade, they may often increase for external trade if there are issues with harmonization. Simply moving Ukraine to the standard gauge would mean its train link with Russia is instantly severed.
Russian economy was built on the presumption of an economic periphery and it would need a massive transformation to thrive (or at least to extract wealth for the kleptocrats) if that periphery entirely collapses. Both the Single Market and China are pressing on that periphery.

Of course that doesn't give them any moral excuse for their actions but it does explain them well beyond military paranoia.

[Jessicka]

Thus making it far from being an EU army. You do realize you just validated what I said ?

NATO doesn’t need every member of NATO to function and put together an operation. The US is the largest overall contributor and is a very active member; but there’s nothing technically stopping for example France, UK, Italy getting together and using NATO structures to go do stuff.

[Specialka]

NATO doesn’t need every member of NATO to function and put together an operation. The US is the largest overall contributor and is a very active member; but there’s nothing technically stopping for example France, UK, Italy getting together and using NATO structures to go do stuff.

And which way does it contradict what I said ?

[Endus]

Even now, in Ukraine war NATO's expansion is one of the main reasons that countless humans are perishing. Most of you are too brainwashed by our media to even realize what is happening, but it's ok, NATO's secretary general has said it already in public: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGepjsmKv/

Well, you just acknowledged you're a Russian mouthpiece who's willing to lie out their ass to protect Mother Russia no matter what.

Your own link's only "evidence" is that Putin demanded NATO not enlarge, or they'd invade, a demand he had no right to issue and no grounds for expecting anyone to sign on to, especially when Putin already had a treaty with Ukraine that he'd never invade, that he already intentionally broke. Why would NATO treat someone seriously when they've already violated such a treaty?

Putin was already planning to invade when he sent that treaty offer. That's why he sent it. To try and get something for nothing, and then do whatever he wanted to anyway.

What you're pushing is straight propaganda. You're everything you project onto others.

[Ulmita]

Putin was already planning to invade when he sent that treaty offer. That's why he sent it. To try and get something for nothing, and then do whatever he wanted to anyway.

What you're pushing is straight propaganda. You're everything you project onto others.

Talking about propaganda, can you back up that claim somehow?

[diller]

Thus making it far from being an EU army. You do realize you just validated what I said ?

What the hell is your point?

No I agree NATO isn't an EU army, but the stuff I pointed out has nothing to do with that and you are just deflecting.

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Talking about propaganda, can you back up that claim somehow?

He could just quote your posts back at you.

[Ulmita]

What the hell is your point?

No I agree NATO isn't an EU army, but the stuff I pointed out has nothing to do with that and you are just deflecting.

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He could just quote your posts back at you.

Nahh, he is just imagining stuff, and he is just trying to pass them as truth. Aka the definition of propaganda.

Russia was trying to negotiate with the west up to the very last minute. Its well documented in western press.

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia...ng-2021-12-17/

Now going forward claiming that "Russia would have invaded either way" it's just his imagination and he has no way of proving that. Aka pure propaganda