Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gabriel]

Come on Gabby, you know just as well as I do there are competent russians...somewhere...most left russia of course.

Mostly just outside of Russian Federation proper.

[Belize]

That runs the risk of them being replaced by someone competent and not corrupt.

There any of those left in Russia...?

[Makabreska]

There any of those left in Russia...?

Memes aside, there defo are competent peeps there. Shoigu replacement, Andrey Belousov seems to be one of them.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Memes aside, there defo are competent peeps there. Shoigu replacement, Andrey Belousov seems to be one of them.

The challenge was "competent AND not corrupt". Passing one of them is rare enough though.

[Easo]

Ah yes, "dumb incapable Russians" because that totally is reasonable take and does not reek of some very dark things. If we are to believe Spiegel the suspected assasins already had entered EU, but "there was not enough reason for arrest". Convenient.

Oh well, back to watching busification videos.

[Gabriel]

The West has unironically fallen if we can't fucking even arrest known foreign assassins on our own soil.

We should've sent them back in a series of diplomatic mail parcels.

[Zaydin]

That runs the risk of them being replaced by someone competent and not corrupt.

In any other country, maybe. But Russia is one of the most corrupt countries on Earth.

[YUPPIE]

I'm not going to state the obvious, but if you are all looking for a reason why Russia can murder/attempt murder on Western soil and why our leaders - barring corruption issues - seem hesitant to help Ukraine out a lot more:

You all know deep down what "escalation" entails and why we even bother talking to Russia than just going all-out. The fear of it is very real and why some diplomatic measures sort of exist.

It's why I don't really appreciate Zelenksy making his speeches recently condemning Western leaders for such hesitancy. He must obviously know why even people like Biden are hesitant, and yet he still criticizes them openly.

[Poopymonster]

There any of those left in Russia...?

To answer both parts of your question in order.
Yes. No.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not going to state the obvious, but if you are all looking for a reason why Russia can murder/attempt murder on Western soil and why our leaders - barring corruption issues - seem hesitant to help Ukraine out a lot more:

You all know deep down what "escalation" entails and why we even bother talking to Russia than just going all-out. The fear of it is very real and why some diplomatic measures sort of exist.

It's why I don't really appreciate Zelenksy making his speeches recently condemning Western leaders for such hesitancy. He must obviously know why even people like Biden are hesitant, and yet he still criticizes them openly.

I dunno bout ya'll. I'm getting really strong "Say the line Bart" energy here.

[Endus]

I'm not going to state the obvious, but if you are all looking for a reason why Russia can murder/attempt murder on Western soil and why our leaders - barring corruption issues - seem hesitant to help Ukraine out a lot more:

You all know deep down what "escalation" entails and why we even bother talking to Russia than just going all-out. The fear of it is very real and why some diplomatic measures sort of exist.

It's why I don't really appreciate Zelenksy making his speeches recently condemning Western leaders for such hesitancy. He must obviously know why even people like Biden are hesitant, and yet he still criticizes them openly.

If you cower down before a threat, you're a coward. Especially when you present a bigger threat yourself.

You keep acting like fear is the appropriate response to such a threat, whether implicit or explicit. It isn't. Response in kind is the only thing that has historically proven to work. MAD is what kept the Cold War cold. "Just try it, fucko, and your entire country will be glass" is the only valid response to a nuclear threat.

[Sunseeker]

It is a continuing embarrassment that we haven't escalated. And all the reasons we haven't, save for "war sucks ass", are totally bullshit. We have strong geopolitical interests in the area. We have strong economic interests in the area. We have weaker allies in the area. It would be a good look internationally. We've gone to war with others for less, we've proxy-warred with Russia for less.

I'm sure someone will say, "Well then you go sign up!" Ya know, for a war that actually has value and meaning, I just fucking might. But I'm not going to throw my hat into the armed forces when we're more interested in pissing about in fucking desert than doing the right thing.

What's the Colossus speech? 4 or 5 moments? We're missing one right now.

[YUPPIE]

If you cower down before a threat, you're a coward. Especially when you present a bigger threat yourself.

You keep acting like fear is the appropriate response to such a threat, whether implicit or explicit. It isn't. Response in kind is the only thing that has historically proven to work. MAD is what kept the Cold War cold. "Just try it, fucko, and your entire country will be glass" is the only valid response to a nuclear threat.

yeah i mean sure we can easily take out Russia but it'd come at a cost the world has never seen before.

And after that, we'll perpetually have Russian insurgents all over the world carrying out Islamic-esque terror attacks on behalf of the now annexed shell of Russia.

these are things the West wants to avoid. Escalation.

[Endus]

yeah i mean sure we can easily take out Russia but it'd come at a cost the world has never seen before.

The only way that will happen is if Russia makes it necessary. So the blame for the whole thing would still lie on Russia.

And after that, we'll perpetually have Russian insurgents all over the world carrying out Islamic-esque terror attacks on behalf of the now annexed shell of Russia.

We're still not afraid. Fuck 'em. Maybe you want to shake in your boots about the paper wombat that is Russia, but the rest of us don't see it as the threat you're making it out to be.

these are things the West wants to avoid. Escalation.

Yeah, that's not what's going on, here. Western nations aren't kowtowing to Russia to try and avoid Russia escalating. It's not a threat, because Russia has no military capacity to meaningfully threaten the West.

[YUPPIE]

but the rest of us don't see it as the threat you're making it out to be.

the politicians and government officials do (again). And I'm sure they know better than civilians.

That's why Russia does whatever it wants regardless of depravity. Almost 3 years into this and every time they commit a massacre or whatever, nothing's been done about it.

[Endus]

the politicians and government officials do (again). And I'm sure they know better than civilians.

That's why Russia does whatever it wants regardless of depravity.

Why would I believe baseless conspiracy wharrgarble?

Russia can't handle Ukraine. Nobody believes they have any capacity to challenge any major Western power alone, let alone their combined forces.

Ukraine is currently a convenient place for Western powers to dump old, out-of-date equipment so it can be effectively used as they replace that equipment with newer materiel. Going any further than that would put those Western nations' own military personnel at risk, as well as that newer materiel, and as it stands, Russia isn't a threat worth that investment. That's why the Western world isn't going further; Ukraine is handling the job.

Yes, there's a lot of self-interest there I don't agree with personally, but it isn't out of fuckin' fear of fuckin' Russia. Russia's been exposed as a joke, a paper tiger who can't live up to any of their militaristic claims. Remember their new supersonic ballistic missiles that were supposed to be unstoppable? And then Ukraine shot them all down with standard, last-gen equipment? Russia's not a threat and nobody takes them seriously as a power. They stopped being a world threat somewhat before they ceased to be the Soviet Union, and modern Russia has never actually presented a military threat to the West. They aren't a superpower. They were unfairly ranked too high, militarily, and the Ukraine conflict has exposed that most of that threat was a lie told by Russian intelligence. If they had the capacities they'd claimed, Ukraine might've actually been the three-week exercise they claimed it would be. Instead, it's a boondoggle and Russia has been repeatedly embarrassed.

[YUPPIE]

Russia can't handle Ukraine. Nobody believes they have any capacity to challenge any major Western power alone, let alone their combined forces.

Obviously Russia isn't winning in conventional confrontation/warfare against the West. If we put our foot down, we would doubtlessly destroy all their forces and send them scurrying back into Russia and then set up borders and rebuild while ensuring they don't step near Ukraine within a thousand miles.

But then what will Putin do in response when he loses face and now has the excuse the West is threatening Russia's statehood?

[DarkTZeratul]

But then what will Putin do in response when he loses face and now has the excuse the West is threatening Russia's statehood?

He's already saying this is the case, and he's been saying it almost since it became clear Ukraine wouldn't fall right away. Putin's also had plenty of opportunities to fall back and save face by simply lying about the outcome and finding an excuse to spin it as a victory. What, precisely, would be different about them actually getting pushed out of Ukraine?

[Popastique]

I'm sure someone will say, "Well then you go sign up!" Ya know, for a war that actually has value and meaning, I just fucking might.

Ha ha, mkay

[YUPPIE]

He's already saying this is the case, and he's been saying it almost since it became clear Ukraine wouldn't fall right away.

It will be easier to sell that lie if the angry legions of psychotic soldiers just lost a war and came home start rampaging across Moscow. In that moment, Putin can say the anarchy is caused by the West and the apathetic victims of the carnage will buy his narrative of course (or be forced to).

Compared to just bluffing, that will probably convince the Russians.

[Gabriel]

yeah i mean sure we can easily take out Russia but it'd come at a cost the world has never seen before.

And after that, we'll perpetually have Russian insurgents all over the world carrying out Islamic-esque terror attacks on behalf of the now annexed shell of Russia.

these are things the West wants to avoid. Escalation.

My brother in Christ, nobody wants to annex Russia. I want to see it burn.