Conventional warfare doesn't always jump to the conclusion of nukes (aka MAD) but Putin's war against Ukraine by design is one against the West as a whole. Ukraine is a stepping stone for resources to facilitate a war against NATO and the West, to restore Russian supremacy back to Soviet times.
Others in on it include North Korea, Iran, and China, and their minor allies, all of which have a significant vendetta against peculiar US allies if not the US itself. North Korea wants to destroy South Korea, Iran with Israel (and obtain total regional dominance by also destroying Saudi Arabia, etc), and China wants Taiwan as a similar stepping stone to Ukraine to inevitably challenge Western dominance in a real war.
Nukes are just a psychological leverage superpowers like Russia and China have for annexing small countries step by step for now.
If only there were active mods down here
he is a pawn/figurehead puppet but that doesn't always imply something bad. I mean, you can't seriously think the US would assist Ukraine out of merely goodwill.
The US is not directly in a war with Russia right now, but Zelenksy and Ukraine is the proxy the US is using to significantly weaken and drain Russia.
Should Ukraine win, it's pretty obvious that while the US isn't going to annex Ukraine, it will have access to its rich resources as part of the bargain. Deal with the devil vs absolute destruction (Russia), pretty much.
Last edited by YUPPIE; 2024-08-02 at 04:53 PM.
Apples and oranges, friend.
First of all, it had nothing to do with NATO. Second, the US, who helped, has a long-standing relationship with Israel. Third, US forces were in place to help. Fourth, the US and NATO have done a hell of a lot to help Ukraine provide for their air defense needs, even if they're not going to be there in force to do it directly.
R.I.P. Democracy
"The difference between stupidity
and genius is that genius has its limits."
--Alexandre Dumas-fils
Whatever measure you take, Germany is closer to Russia than Greece.
If you go by water then Russia's nearest port is about 400km away from Germany, while Greece is about 800km, considering the destruction of their port in Crimea it's more like 1300km away from Greece and they have to go through Turkey.
If you're going by land, Russia is about 400km away from Germany with Poland between, while Greece is about 1300km away with all of Turkey or Ukraine, Romania, and Bulgaria in between.
You should follow your advice.
Duh, noone would be a willing ally of the US. Ukraine is a pawn, France is a pawn, Finland is a pawn, Japan is a pawn. How could such an evil country as America have allies or friends? They must all be pawns!
Thats how you know to trust Russia, they have no friends, so none of their allies could be pawns!
Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.
Just, be kind.
That's your interpretation, but not fact.
This is closer to what's believed to be the motivation, but it has nothing to do with defeating the West, especially considering the fact that the USSR never had "supremacy" over the West in the first place.
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The EU has sent more aid to Ukraine than the US. The EU is more likely to be a strong trade partner with Ukraine in the future.
Why do people not say that Zelensky is the EU's pawn instead?
Because it's conspiracy theory bunk, that's why.
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Brilliant, lol.
R.I.P. Democracy
"The difference between stupidity
and genius is that genius has its limits."
--Alexandre Dumas-fils
Because EU wasn't mentioned there, but he is one to the EU as well. But instead of jerking it around as a pawn of this and that with the US and EU, Zelenksy can be summarized as a geopolitical pawn of the West as a whole.
Also, the EU is slightly edging out the US in aid support because we have this issue with a political party that is collectively a Russian asset (Republican). That's an internal problem. Like JD Vance recently outright expressed his intent to revoke all aid to Ukraine should Trump win.
Also...
...this is outright bullshit. Greece has been trying to offload those older F-16s anyway:
Greece Donating 32 F-16s to Ukraine
- - - Updated - - -A number of Western and Middle Eastern media sources reported July 17 that 32 F-16 Block 30 fighters set to be decommissioned by the Hellenic Air Force, the official name of the Greek Armed Forces’ air arm, will be returned to the United States by the Greek government. These aircraft are set to be modernised in the U.S. before being delivered to Ukraine as aid. The deal was reportedly facilitated by the U.S. Congress’ approval for the export of 40 F-35A fifth generation fighters to Greece - an aircraft developed as direct successor to the F-35A for the U.S. Air Force and American allies. Greece is set to become the latest of multiple European states to donate F-16s to Ukraine alongside Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark, all of which were also able to do so largely due to the receipt of F-35As to replace them. In parallel to acquisition of F-35s, the Hellenic Air Force has also begun to receive Rafale ‘4+ generation’ fighters, several of which were donated second hand from France, allowing it to maintain a mixed fleet.
No, that's called diplomacy, not "being a pawn".
R.I.P. Democracy
"The difference between stupidity
and genius is that genius has its limits."
--Alexandre Dumas-fils
The US and EU aren't saints that champion diplomacy and democracy as they claim to. While Putin isn't obviously good, let alone better, him assessing the West as an imperialistic oligarchy is correct.
Just accept Ukraine's place in modern history for what it is: a major proxy to weaken one of the West's most hated enemies.
That's not untrue, from the perspective of US/EU motivations. Still doesn't make Zelensky a "pawn". Neither the US nor the EU in any way control Zelensky. And Russia is solely to blame for starting this war.
Nobody really claims that the US or EU are saints, though nor are we the demonized caricatures as portrayed by certain propaganda arms.
Multiple US/EU goals are advanced by supporting Ukraine. Some are altruistic, some are not. But again, that's a far, far, far cry from calling an elected leader of a sovereign country a "pawn".
R.I.P. Democracy
"The difference between stupidity
and genius is that genius has its limits."
--Alexandre Dumas-fils
That's a complete lie. They control how he conducts this war. If Zelenksy had his way, he would be attempting to bomb Moscow directly and actively seek out Putin. We've already seen through the creaks he is a man consumed by rage and vengeance but is being forced to restrain himself per his benefactor's strategies and needs.
That's why he's always complaining about the EU and West imposing restrictions on what he can and can't do, but he can't obviously dare go against his benefactors and take initiative.
The US’ position, at its most cynical, is “We both benefit from seeing Russia get kicked in the teeth. Let us help you kick Russia in the teeth.” Anything ascribing more to the US’ motivation starts to rapidly fall into Russian propaganda.
The US benefits by seeing a geopolitical enemy and bad actor denigrated on a global stage. Ukraine benefits by… not having their entire country completely destroyed.
Of course if Russia wanted this to all stop, they could always just pull out of Ukraine.
And anyone bitching about Russia’s retreat not being “realistic” because they have to “save face,” maybe that should be your point of criticism, not the US’ opportunism in helping Ukraine or that their help “extends the war.”
“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
Words to live by.
I love that this forum just tolerages open propaganda posters. Even Reddit has better moderation now.
Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.
Just, be kind.
russia can't pull out because it's lost too much and the sanctions will destroy the country in time anyways. They pretty much have to go in all the way now and get Ukraine to regain some breathing room.
That's why they don't give up.
"Influence" and "control" are different things entirely.
There you go again, pretending like your fanfic headcanon is somehow true just because you say it is.
Also, the US is allowed to control how its donated military aid is used. That's also entirely different from controlling other things.
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Ah, yes, "breathing room".
R.I.P. Democracy
"The difference between stupidity
and genius is that genius has its limits."
--Alexandre Dumas-fils