Russian invasion of Ukraine

[MCMLXXXII]

If only there were active mods down here

[YUPPIE]

I can't even fathom why any intelligent person would consider Zelensky a pawn of the US.

he is a pawn/figurehead puppet but that doesn't always imply something bad. I mean, you can't seriously think the US would assist Ukraine out of merely goodwill.

The US is not directly in a war with Russia right now, but Zelenksy and Ukraine is the proxy the US is using to significantly weaken and drain Russia.

Should Ukraine win, it's pretty obvious that while the US isn't going to annex Ukraine, it will have access to its rich resources as part of the bargain. Deal with the devil vs absolute destruction (Russia), pretty much.

[PhaelixWW]

Anyway guys, even Zelensky said it himself, when Israel was attacked by Iran the entire NATO intercept the missles and Israel is not a member of NATO, the same doesn't happen in Ukraine.

Apples and oranges, friend.

First of all, it had nothing to do with NATO. Second, the US, who helped, has a long-standing relationship with Israel. Third, US forces were in place to help. Fourth, the US and NATO have done a hell of a lot to help Ukraine provide for their air defense needs, even if they're not going to be there in force to do it directly.

[Mayhem]

Russia is gigantic but the south part is very close to our country, not that far away from Turkey, if Russia is next to Turkey then I guess it makes sense that it's very close to us as well correct?

Whatever measure you take, Germany is closer to Russia than Greece.

If you go by water then Russia's nearest port is about 400km away from Germany, while Greece is about 800km, considering the destruction of their port in Crimea it's more like 1300km away from Greece and they have to go through Turkey.

If you're going by land, Russia is about 400km away from Germany with Poland between, while Greece is about 1300km away with all of Turkey or Ukraine, Romania, and Bulgaria in between.

Google maps is there, you can check it.

You should follow your advice.

[Sunseeker]

I can't even fathom why any intelligent person would consider Zelensky a pawn of the US.

And it's not a fact just because you said so, sorry.

Duh, noone would be a willing ally of the US. Ukraine is a pawn, France is a pawn, Finland is a pawn, Japan is a pawn. How could such an evil country as America have allies or friends? They must all be pawns!

Thats how you know to trust Russia, they have no friends, so none of their allies could be pawns!

[PhaelixWW]

Putin's war against Ukraine by design is one against the West as a whole. Ukraine is a stepping stone for resources to facilitate a war against NATO and the West

That's your interpretation, but not fact.

to restore Russian supremacy back to Soviet times.

This is closer to what's believed to be the motivation, but it has nothing to do with defeating the West, especially considering the fact that the USSR never had "supremacy" over the West in the first place.

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Should Ukraine win, it's pretty obvious that while the US isn't going to annex Ukraine, it will have access to its rich resources as part of the bargain. Deal with the devil vs absolute destruction (Russia), pretty much.

The EU has sent more aid to Ukraine than the US. The EU is more likely to be a strong trade partner with Ukraine in the future.

Why do people not say that Zelensky is the EU's pawn instead?

Because it's conspiracy theory bunk, that's why.

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Duh, noone would be a willing ally of the US. Ukraine is a pawn, France is a pawn, Finland is a pawn, Japan is a pawn. How could such an evil country as America have allies or friends? They must all be pawns!

Thats how you know to trust Russia, they have no friends, so none of their allies could be pawns!

Brilliant, lol.

[Endus]

NATO are five countries, US, Canada, UK, France, Germany - the Saxon alliance, everyone else is pretty much a fodder meat for them and racially inferior. Now, if these inferior insignificant countries are trying hard to prove how good dogs they are, that's a dream situation for the saxon because they can sacrifice the fodder. It's the reason they are forcing us to send F-16 to Ukraine and antiair systems even though we are much smaller than them.

This is just absolutely steaming anti-NATO propaganda. There is no basis for this whatsoever. You're bullshitting, openly.

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Wait, do you deny that Zelensky is a pawn of the US? that's not even a conspiracy, it's a fact.

If something is not following the US narrative it's either a conspiracy, paranoia or whataboutism, ok I get it. This forum has always been like this anyway.

So just openly pushing Russian propaganda at this point?

Sad.

[YUPPIE]

The EU has sent more aid to Ukraine than the US. The EU is more likely to be a strong trade partner with Ukraine in the future.

Why do people not say that Zelensky is the EU's pawn instead?

Because EU wasn't mentioned there, but he is one to the EU as well. But instead of jerking it around as a pawn of this and that with the US and EU, Zelenksy can be summarized as a geopolitical pawn of the West as a whole.

Also, the EU is slightly edging out the US in aid support because we have this issue with a political party that is collectively a Russian asset (Republican). That's an internal problem. Like JD Vance recently outright expressed his intent to revoke all aid to Ukraine should Trump win.

[PhaelixWW]

Also...

It's the reason they are forcing us to send F-16 to Ukraine and antiair systems even though we are much smaller than them.

...this is outright bullshit. Greece has been trying to offload those older F-16s anyway:

Greece Donating 32 F-16s to Ukraine

A number of Western and Middle Eastern media sources reported July 17 that 32 F-16 Block 30 fighters set to be decommissioned by the Hellenic Air Force, the official name of the Greek Armed Forces’ air arm, will be returned to the United States by the Greek government. These aircraft are set to be modernised in the U.S. before being delivered to Ukraine as aid. The deal was reportedly facilitated by the U.S. Congress’ approval for the export of 40 F-35A fifth generation fighters to Greece - an aircraft developed as direct successor to the F-35A for the U.S. Air Force and American allies. Greece is set to become the latest of multiple European states to donate F-16s to Ukraine alongside Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark, all of which were also able to do so largely due to the receipt of F-35As to replace them. In parallel to acquisition of F-35s, the Hellenic Air Force has also begun to receive Rafale ‘4+ generation’ fighters, several of which were donated second hand from France, allowing it to maintain a mixed fleet.

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Because EU wasn't mentioned there, but he is one to the EU as well. But instead of jerking it around as a pawn of this and that with the US and EU, Zelenksy can be summarized as a geopolitical pawn of the West as a whole.

No, that's called diplomacy, not "being a pawn".

[YUPPIE]

No, that's called diplomacy, not "being a pawn".

The US and EU aren't saints that champion diplomacy and democracy as they claim to. While Putin isn't obviously good, let alone better, him assessing the West as an imperialistic oligarchy is correct.

Just accept Ukraine's place in modern history for what it is: a major proxy to weaken one of the West's most hated enemies.

[Belize]

So just openly pushing Russian propaganda at this point?

Sad.

He always has been, which is why this new spin on Russia attacking random NATO members is so insultingly lazy and stupid.

[PhaelixWW]

Just accept Ukraine's place in modern history for what it is: a major proxy to weaken one of the West's most hated enemies.

That's not untrue, from the perspective of US/EU motivations. Still doesn't make Zelensky a "pawn". Neither the US nor the EU in any way control Zelensky. And Russia is solely to blame for starting this war.

Nobody really claims that the US or EU are saints, though nor are we the demonized caricatures as portrayed by certain propaganda arms.

Multiple US/EU goals are advanced by supporting Ukraine. Some are altruistic, some are not. But again, that's a far, far, far cry from calling an elected leader of a sovereign country a "pawn".

[YUPPIE]

Neither the US nor the EU in any way control Zelensky.

That's a complete lie. They control how he conducts this war. If Zelenksy had his way, he would be attempting to bomb Moscow directly and actively seek out Putin. We've already seen through the creaks he is a man consumed by rage and vengeance but is being forced to restrain himself per his benefactor's strategies and needs.

That's why he's always complaining about the EU and West imposing restrictions on what he can and can't do, but he can't obviously dare go against his benefactors and take initiative.

[Kaleredar]

That's not untrue, from the perspective of US/EU motivations. Still doesn't make Zelensky a "pawn". Neither the US nor the EU in any way control Zelensky. And Russia is solely to blame for starting this war.

Nobody really claims that the US or EU are saints, though nor are we the demonized caricatures as portrayed by certain propaganda arms.

Multiple US/EU goals are advanced by supporting Ukraine. Some are altruistic, some are not. But again, that's a far, far, far cry from calling an elected leader of a sovereign country a "pawn".

The US’ position, at its most cynical, is “We both benefit from seeing Russia get kicked in the teeth. Let us help you kick Russia in the teeth.” Anything ascribing more to the US’ motivation starts to rapidly fall into Russian propaganda.

The US benefits by seeing a geopolitical enemy and bad actor denigrated on a global stage. Ukraine benefits by… not having their entire country completely destroyed.

Of course if Russia wanted this to all stop, they could always just pull out of Ukraine.


And anyone bitching about Russia’s retreat not being “realistic” because they have to “save face,” maybe that should be your point of criticism, not the US’ opportunism in helping Ukraine or that their help “extends the war.”

[Sunseeker]

I love that this forum just tolerages open propaganda posters. Even Reddit has better moderation now.

[YUPPIE]

russia can't pull out because it's lost too much and the sanctions will destroy the country in time anyways. They pretty much have to go in all the way now and get Ukraine to regain some breathing room.

That's why they don't give up.

[PhaelixWW]

That's a complete lie. They control how he conducts this war.

"Influence" and "control" are different things entirely.

If Zelenksy had his way, he would be attempting to bomb Moscow directly and actively seek out Putin. We've already seen through the creaks he is a man consumed by rage and vengeance but is being forced to restrain himself per his benefactor's strategies and needs.

There you go again, pretending like your fanfic headcanon is somehow true just because you say it is.

Also, the US is allowed to control how its donated military aid is used. That's also entirely different from controlling other things.

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russia can't pull out because it's lost too much and the sanctions will destroy the country in time anyways. They pretty much have to go in all the way now and get Ukraine to regain some breathing room.

Ah, yes, "breathing room".

[alach]

I love that this forum just tolerages open propaganda posters. Even Reddit has better moderation now.

I dunno, I feel like it's pretty good at self-policing. The nonsense is usually assaulted by evidence and facts instead of just being ignored. Would these people realize how strange their theories were if they had just been banned?

[Sunseeker]

I dunno, I feel like it's pretty good at self-policing. The nonsense is usually assaulted by evidence and facts instead of just being ignored. Would these people realize how strange their theories were if they had just been banned?

"They"(im assuming youre talking about general readers, not bad faith actors) wouldnt have to, the bad faith actors would be banned, and their nonsense wouldnt exist.

If by "they" you meant the bad faith actors, they dont correct themselves, none of them have, ever.

[alach]

If by "they" you meant the bad faith actors, they dont correct themselves, none of them have, ever.

I still have faith they aren't all putin-paid and are just generally misguided and misinformed.
But your probably right.