Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Vampiregenesis]

So you're choosing to stay because leaving would be economically bad.

So much for the bullshit claims of being "enslaved".

The primary reason we don't leave is because our politicians are corrupt and they don't want to give up their benefits by disrupting their masters/partners. The other more "legit" reason is what would happen when we return back to the point where we are alone, many fear what this could trigger and prefer the EU due to the stability and predictability it offers but this is a really bad stability. Unknown doesn't necessarily mean economically bad and even if it's worse, there are more parameters in the economy, some markets need to be adjusted to reflect the true buying power of Greeks.

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Fair, got bad info from whatever third-party site that was. The Gov.gr site confirms 830.



This is true everywhere, dude. It isn't a Greek thing, it's a global late stage capitalism thing. It's certainly true in the US and Canada, where we don't have any EU to deal with, so it's not an EU-generated problem.

And if there's a black market for labor where people are being paid less than minimum wage, that's entirely a Greece problem, not an EU thing at all. Again.

And that's precisely why Trumpism wins. we need measures to be protected by these anomalies, we can't take such measures within the EU. I don't know the situation in US or Canada and what they are dealing with. As far as I can see, Trump wants to do something similar to improve the quality of life in America. He wants to renegotiate some bad deals. In our case the EU is a bad deal as a whole.

[Nymrohd]

Now wages. Minimum wage in Greece is 968 Euros a month. https://countryeconomy.com/national-...r%2C%206.41%25.

That's below that cost of living, sure, for a person living alone. But that's also minimum wage. And the average rent in Athens is hundreds of Euro below that, not more than it.

968 is mixed, including tax and pension contributions. You clear 706. And I know people with law or engineering degrees working on min wage. Greece also has one of the highest rates of food inflation in Europe; we are actually performing quite well when it comes to inflation in many other sectors comparatively but when it comes to food we have been hit hard.
I am not saying I am agreeing with vamp, but things are pretty damn bad here for the working and lower middle class and if the trends stand, we will end up taking over Bulgaria as the functionally poorest nation in the EU per PPP. And the political situation is abysmal; I am not going to blame it on foreign conspiracies but rather on the fact that the balance of power between parties has completely collapsed.

I could explain our situation in detail but really it would be completely off topic as all of this already is.

[Jastall]

Here is the thing. You are all convinced these people are wittingly pushing propaganda because they are somehow Russian assets or something. Which I am sorry but is vastly more deranged than them simply believing this crap. Hating NATO is a Greek leftwing past time. Nearly 60% unfavourable! Chances are that anyone left of center loathes NATO and many others are at least distrustful of it. Russophile attitudes are hard to change as well. You cannot imagine how many people were obsessing with Russia saving us from the financial crisis as if Putin gave a shit. It was vastly better before the current war and it is bouncing back since "It is all NATO and the US' fault" just works well to people who hate NATO already.

We have some of those here in Canada as well. Most of the more vocal ones are people who listened to Chomsky once and think they have international relations all figured out by saying "USA bad". From there the train of immaculate logic inevitably flows towards "enemies of USA good" of one flavor of another. I assume a very similar phenomenon happens in Europe, often by just replacing USA with EU which is of course the easiest of all scapegoats to point towards.

And of course there's always a whole bunch of people like that other dude who are adept at blaming literally everyone but themselves for their country's problems. That's just a constant everywhere.

[Vampiregenesis]

We have some of those here in Canada as well. Most of the more vocal ones are people who listened to Chomsky once and think they have international relations all figured out by saying "USA bad". From there the train of immaculate logic inevitably flows towards "enemies of USA good" of one flavor of another. I assume a very similar phenomenon happens in Europe, often by just replacing USA with EU which is of course the easiest of all scapegoats to point towards.

And of course there's always a whole bunch of people like that other dude who are adept at blaming literally everyone but themselves for their country's problems. That's just a constant everywhere.

What I'm trying to say is that from the US perspective Ukraine is fighting for liberty or whatever, from our perspective Ukraine is fighting to change a bad master for another. We don't understand why the west is beneficial, we have not experienced it. I think most countries who want to join the EU look at Germany and they believe they will become like that when they join the Union, incredibly wealthy and democratic countries. It doesn't work like that. Georgia was smart enough to withdraw from this mess by enforcing the anti-european law. Their country stands just fine.

If countries like Germany, UK, France went to war with Russia it would make sense, they are economy powerhouses and they enjoy insane benefits, so Putin's aggression could be disruptive for them, it makes absolutely no sense for small and poor countries in the EU to do the same.

Have fun explaining to the beaten up European that he/she should take Putin seriously.

[Nymrohd]

What I'm trying to say is that from the US perspective Ukraine is fighting for liberty or whatever, from our perspective Ukraine is fighting to change a bad master for another. We don't understand why the west is beneficial, we have not experienced it. I think most countries who want to join the EU look at Germany and they believe they will become like that when they join the Union, incredibly wealthy and democratic countries. It doesn't work like that. Georgia was smart enough to withdraw from this mess by enforcing the anti-european law. Their country stands just fine.

If countries like Germany, UK, France went to war with Russia it would make sense, they are economy powerhouses and they enjoy insane benefits, so Putin's aggression could be disruptive for them, it makes absolutely no sense for small and poor countries in the EU to do the same.

Have fun explaining to the beaten up European that he/she should take Putin seriously.

No, most countries look at Poland and the Baltics and the vast improvement in quality of life after joining the EU.

[Jastall]

What I'm trying to say is that from the US perspective Ukraine is fighting for liberty or whatever, from our perspective Ukraine is fighting to change a bad master for another. We don't understand why the west is beneficial, we have not experienced it. I think most countries who want to join the EU look at Germany and they believe they will become like that when they join the Union, incredibly wealthy and democratic countries. It doesn't work like that. Georgia was smart enough to withdraw from this mess by enforcing the anti-european law. Their country stands just fine.

If countries like Germany, UK, France went to war with Russia it would make sense, they are economy powerhouses and they enjoy insane benefits, so Putin's aggression could be disruptive for them, it makes absolutely no sense for small and poor countries in the EU to do the same.

Have fun explaining to the beaten up European that he/she should take Putin seriously.

Ukraine is fighting to keep existing as an independant country, mostly, and to exist within a sphere of influence that might not be perfect, but is darn better than Russia's in every way that matters. You think the EU is so bad for Greece, consider how good Russia is and historically has been for, say, Georgia (lol at your "stands just fine", not like they got invaded when they became uppity or anything) or Kazakhstan, or you know Ukraine itself.

As I said, this reads very much like you deciding to blame everyone but your countrymen for what your country is up to. Your choice of course, but that's not going to improve things.

[Vampiregenesis]

No, most countries look at Poland and the Baltics and the vast improvement in quality of life after joining the EU.

What? The situation is still terrible over there.

We don't even know how the quality of life was there during the soviet union outside of west propaganda but I'm pretty sure that it's not good at all right now.

[Makabreska]

What? The situation is still terrible over there.

We don't even know how the quality of life was there during the soviet union outside of west propaganda but I'm pretty sure that it's not good at all right now.

I'm Polish, I know. You are absolutely full of shit.

[YUPPIE]

"Influence" and "control" are different things entirely.

No, it's literally "control" and not "influence" with Zelenksy. "Influencing" giving him a compelling reason to not do something, but still letting it be up to him; "Controlling" is outright warning him not to do something or the plug (aid) will be pulled.

Like he wants to go all-in on getting Crimea back or hitting Moscow at its heart, but he's being directly controlled not to. That's why he throws those low-key tantrums and criticisms at the EU and US in public speeches, condemning them for their "double standards" and cowardice of overly provoking Russia.

[DarkTZeratul]

No, it's literally "control" and not "influence" with Zelenksy. "Influencing" giving him a compelling reason to not do something; "Controlling" is outright warning him not to do something or the plug will be pulled.

Like he wants to go all-in on getting Crimea back or hitting Moscow at its heart, but he's being controlled not to. That's why he throws those low-key tantrums and criticisms at the EU and US in public speeches.

"Here's some stuff, but you can only use it for specific things" is not controlling Zelensky, any more than you'd be "controlling" a friend by giving him $20 to spend on dinner.

[Vampiregenesis]

I'm Polish, I know. You are absolutely full of shit.

Btw Poland is not a member of Eurozone so they still have their own monetary policy. The wages there look worse than Greek ones but I guess the cost of living is adjusted towards their wages. Greece was not too bad during the European Union times, the highest damage was caused during the Eurozone era. We had our monetary policy prior to that. I want to see what you will do when you eventually swap your zloty for Euro.

[Sunseeker]

Damn! Those goalposts must have a V8 at at the rate theyre moving!

[Nymrohd]

Btw Poland is not a member of Eurozone so they still have their own monetary policy. The wages there look worse than Greek ones but I guess the cost of living is adjusted towards their wages. Greece was not too bad during the European Union times, the highest damage was caused during the Eurozone era. We had our monetary policy prior to that. I want to see what you will do when you eventually swap your zloty for Euro.

And no one forced us in? Simitis cheated his way in. The EU is not to blame for that? But ofc it's never our fault, it is always someone else conspiring against us!

[PhaelixWW]

No, it's literally "control" and not "influence" with Zelenksy. "Influencing" giving him a compelling reason to not do something, but still letting it be up to him; "Controlling" is outright warning him not to do something or the plug (aid) will be pulled.

No, the US is offering conditional help. That's influence, not control. Especially since the conditions are on how the aid is being used, not on other policy decisions.

Like he wants to go all-in on getting Crimea back or hitting Moscow at its heart, but he's being directly controlled not to.

Again, you're pretending like you have some super-duper secret insight into his thought process.

You don't. It's all in your head. Just stop.

That's why he throws those low-key tantrums and criticisms at the EU and US in public speeches, condemning them for their "double standards" and cowardice of overly provoking Russia.

You're vastly overstating the reaction. Which is what you do. You somehow imagine that everything is 10x more severe than it actually is.

Have you been checked for an anxiety condition? Because this repeated pattern is worrisome.

[Vampiregenesis]

And no one forced us in? Simitis cheated his way in. The EU is not to blame for that? But ofc it's never our fault, it is always someone else conspiring against us!

Well, we voted a big NO in front of the entire world in 2015 and how did EU reacted to that? another ill-made loan and more austerity measures, even more deadly than before.

I mean, what else can we do? if that's not enough then what?

We were never asked if we want to join Eurozone or not.

Until now, all of our referendums have been ignored.

You see how democratic and free the EU is? Not that different from Russia if you ask me!

[Nymrohd]

Well, we voted a big NO in front of the entire world in 2015 and how did EU reacted to that? another ill-made loan and more austerity measures, even more deadly than before.

I mean, what else can we do? if that's not enough then what?

We were never asked if we want to join Eurozone or not.

Until now, all of our referendums have been ignored.

You see how democratic and free the EU is? Not that different from Russia if you ask me!

Why are you blaming the EU for that? Our government is the one who disrespected the referendum, not the EU. They just called our very obvious bluff. Blame Tsipras who we REELECTED and gave a new mandate to a few months after. You realize how unhinged that exclamation mark makes you sound?

[PhaelixWW]

You see how democratic and free the EU is? Not that different from Russia if you ask me!

You should try living in Russia and tell us if you feel the same way.

[Vampiregenesis]

Why are you blaming the EU for that? Our government is the one who disrespected the referendum, not the EU. They just called our very obvious bluff. Blame Tsipras who we REELECTED and gave a new mandate to a few months after. You realize how unhinged that exclamation mark makes you sound?

They knew very well that they were dealing with someone who is going against the will of his people. Don't tell me now that they didn't do this out of self-interest. They are part of this corruption and you know it.

[Nymrohd]

They knew very well that they were dealing with someone who is going against the will of his people. Don't tell me now that they didn't do this out of self-interest. They are part of this corruption and you know it.

They were very much willing to kick us out. That was what the entire referendum was on, a deal to kick us out of the Eurozone and fund the transition period. Which was off the table by the time we had the vote. The EU did not really owe us anything. Sure they could have helped far more if they wanted to but they had no moral or legal obligation to do so.

Meanwhile you advocate that we all abandon Ukraine to its fate because it is all everyone else's fault anyway. So what is your stance here, that you want the Ukrainian people to suffer like you did? Well last time I checked, no one bombed us in quite a long while.

[Vampiregenesis]

You should try living in Russia and tell us if you feel the same way.

Oh I would like to do that but I don't know Russian, the cost of living is very low there, perfect location for a digital nomad.

They were very much willing to kick us out. That was what the entire referendum was on, a deal to kick us out of the Eurozone and fund the transition period. Which was off the table by the time we had the vote. The EU did not really owe us anything. Sure they could have helped far more if they wanted to but they had no moral or legal obligation to do so.

Meanwhile you advocate that we all abandon Ukraine to its fate because it is all everyone else's fault anyway. So what is your stance here, that you want the Ukrainian people to suffer like you did? Well last time I checked, no one bombed us in quite a long while.

They don't bomb us because we are strong, not because of the EU or US, you probably forgot what happened with Turkey on 2020 and the constant violations. Where is the EU, NATO and US there? "solve the problem yourselves" that's what they are saying to us, that's why everyone believe we will be alone in a major conflict.

Ukraine is already abandoned, with our support we only delay the inevitable, it's not enough to make them win, Ukraine will have to make a compromise with Russia sooner or later. It's a wise choice for us to abandon Ukraine because we have a lot to lose and nothing to gain.

Trump was created in order to offer an exit plan from the US politics in Ukraine. Everything is part of a very organized system.