Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Orange Joe]

Evidence that once, in ancient times, moderation actually did their jobs here.

yeah no...... I remember jaylock. moderation was always a joke here

[Belize]

No in EU, they don't imprison us, neither torture us or kill us, why would they? they don't need to, we suicide instead, we have realized that it's impossible to remove their system. We realized this very well during the referendum in 2015.

Get out from your bubble, Greece is not even the worst case, go and live in a poor country in the EU, see the despair of the rent of a 1 room house being higher than your monthly wage. Do it for a year or so and tell me how you will feel. You will then realize what the Ukrainian is fighting for.

My brother in christ, lay off the Ouzo.

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yeah no...... I remember jaylock. moderation was always a joke here

Omega off topic, but I do occasionally wonder what happened to some of the more... interesting... characters that used to hang around here.

Like, statistically speaking a couple must have been arrested after Jan6 right?

[Endus]

We are enslaved the same way that baltics, Poland, Ukraine were enslaved to Russia during the Soviet Union and had everything wiped out from them. When you are part of Union, the strongest one in them takes everything. The European Union is not the same as the United States, it's a competitive Union where everyone has to stand in it for himself. This Union is dominated by France and Germany, we can't possibly compete with them, we can't stand our ground with such countries, we have to leave and take protective measures and adjust our markets based on regional needs, otherwise this country will remain unhabitable.

Just because European Union is capitalist, it does not make it free.

Again, this is nonsense. Why should I entertain any of it? You can leave the EU if you want; the UK did. And they suffered economically by doing so. Because of the loss of the benefits of being an EU member. You're deflecting all responsibility for Greece's economic woes onto the EU and taking none of them for yourselves, when Greece was not doing any better by itself. Pure baseless propaganda is all you're offering.

If it were really that bad, Greece would just leave. Which you could do any time. As the UK's already demonstrated.

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No in EU, they don't imprison us, neither torture us or kill us, why would they? they don't need to, we suicide instead, we have realized that it's impossible to remove their system. We realized this very well during the referendum in 2015.

Get out from your bubble, Greece is not even the worst case, go and live in a poor country in the EU, see the despair of the rent of a 1 room house being higher than your monthly wage. Do it for a year or so and tell me how you will feel. You will then realize what the Ukrainian is fighting for.

Just to grab some figures;

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Athens

That's for Athens, which I assume is on the more expensive side. So about 1300 Euros a month per person, and a city-center apartment averages almost 600 Euros.

Now wages. Minimum wage in Greece is 968 Euros a month. https://countryeconomy.com/national-...r%2C%206.41%25.

That's below that cost of living, sure, for a person living alone. But that's also minimum wage. And the average rent in Athens is hundreds of Euro below that, not more than it.

The numbers honestly aren't that far off where I'm living in Canada. Rent's arguably higher here, proportionally; we're in a bit of a housing crisis and tipping into a crash. I'm not seeing the argument, dude. The numbers don't hold up.

[Vampiregenesis]

Again, this is nonsense. Why should I entertain any of it? You can leave the EU if you want; the UK did. And they suffered economically by doing so. Because of the loss of the benefits of being an EU member. You're deflecting all responsibility for Greece's economic woes onto the EU and taking none of them for yourselves, when Greece was not doing any better by itself. Pure baseless propaganda is all you're offering.

If it were really that bad, Greece would just leave. Which you could do any time. As the UK's already demonstrated.

The UK suffered because it's a strong player, so it certainly benefited from EU but then again I don't see them trying to rejoin it, maybe they prefer it that way?

If UK decided to leave the EU, Greece which is far weaker economy wise should definitely leave, the reason we don't leave it is corruption and fear of the unknown. I believe that one day we will leave it when things are so bad that this will be our only choice.

[Endus]

The UK suffered because it's a strong player, so it certainly benefited from EU but then again I don't see them trying to rejoin it, maybe they prefer it that way?

If UK decided to leave the UK, Greece which is far weaker economy wise should definitely leave, the reason we don't leave it is corruption and fear of the unknown. I believe that one day we will leave it when things are so bad that this will be our only choice.

So you're choosing to stay because leaving would be economically bad.

So much for the bullshit claims of being "enslaved".

[Vampiregenesis]

Again, this is nonsense. Why should I entertain any of it? You can leave the EU if you want; the UK did. And they suffered economically by doing so. Because of the loss of the benefits of being an EU member. You're deflecting all responsibility for Greece's economic woes onto the EU and taking none of them for yourselves, when Greece was not doing any better by itself. Pure baseless propaganda is all you're offering.

If it were really that bad, Greece would just leave. Which you could do any time. As the UK's already demonstrated.

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Just to grab some figures;

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Athens

That's for Athens, which I assume is on the more expensive side. So about 1300 Euros a month per person, and a city-center apartment averages almost 600 Euros.

Now wages. Minimum wage in Greece is 968 Euros a month. https://countryeconomy.com/national-...r%2C%206.41%25.

That's below that cost of living, sure, for a person living alone. But that's also minimum wage. And the average rent in Athens is hundreds of Euro below that, not more than it.

The numbers honestly aren't that far off where I'm living in Canada. Rent's arguably higher here, proportionally; we're in a bit of a housing crisis and tipping into a crash. I'm not seeing the argument, dude. The numbers don't hold up.

968 Euro minimum wage?

The minimum wage in Greece is 830 euro and a big portion of it goes for insurance and taxation so it's much less.

There is a big black market here as well, the wages there can be even worse and many resort to it due to inability to find work.

Most are unable to live alone and are instead living into their mother's basement even up to 40 years old or more.

[Endus]

968 Euro minimum wage?

The minimum wage in Greece is 830 euro and a big portion of it goes for insurance and taxation so it's much less.

Fair, got bad info from whatever third-party site that was. The Gov.gr site confirms 830.

There is a big black market here as well, the wages there can be even worse and many resort to it due to inability to find work.

Most are unable to live alone and are instead living into their mother's basement even up to 40 years old or more.

This is true everywhere, dude. It isn't a Greek thing, it's a global late stage capitalism thing. It's certainly true in the US and Canada, where we don't have any EU to deal with, so it's not an EU-generated problem.

And if there's a black market for labor where people are being paid less than minimum wage, that's entirely a Greece problem, not an EU thing at all. Again.

[Vampiregenesis]

So you're choosing to stay because leaving would be economically bad.

So much for the bullshit claims of being "enslaved".

The primary reason we don't leave is because our politicians are corrupt and they don't want to give up their benefits by disrupting their masters/partners. The other more "legit" reason is what would happen when we return back to the point where we are alone, many fear what this could trigger and prefer the EU due to the stability and predictability it offers but this is a really bad stability. Unknown doesn't necessarily mean economically bad and even if it's worse, there are more parameters in the economy, some markets need to be adjusted to reflect the true buying power of Greeks.

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Fair, got bad info from whatever third-party site that was. The Gov.gr site confirms 830.



This is true everywhere, dude. It isn't a Greek thing, it's a global late stage capitalism thing. It's certainly true in the US and Canada, where we don't have any EU to deal with, so it's not an EU-generated problem.

And if there's a black market for labor where people are being paid less than minimum wage, that's entirely a Greece problem, not an EU thing at all. Again.

And that's precisely why Trumpism wins. we need measures to be protected by these anomalies, we can't take such measures within the EU. I don't know the situation in US or Canada and what they are dealing with. As far as I can see, Trump wants to do something similar to improve the quality of life in America. He wants to renegotiate some bad deals. In our case the EU is a bad deal as a whole.

[Nymrohd]

Now wages. Minimum wage in Greece is 968 Euros a month. https://countryeconomy.com/national-...r%2C%206.41%25.

That's below that cost of living, sure, for a person living alone. But that's also minimum wage. And the average rent in Athens is hundreds of Euro below that, not more than it.

968 is mixed, including tax and pension contributions. You clear 706. And I know people with law or engineering degrees working on min wage. Greece also has one of the highest rates of food inflation in Europe; we are actually performing quite well when it comes to inflation in many other sectors comparatively but when it comes to food we have been hit hard.
I am not saying I am agreeing with vamp, but things are pretty damn bad here for the working and lower middle class and if the trends stand, we will end up taking over Bulgaria as the functionally poorest nation in the EU per PPP. And the political situation is abysmal; I am not going to blame it on foreign conspiracies but rather on the fact that the balance of power between parties has completely collapsed.

I could explain our situation in detail but really it would be completely off topic as all of this already is.

[Jastall]

Here is the thing. You are all convinced these people are wittingly pushing propaganda because they are somehow Russian assets or something. Which I am sorry but is vastly more deranged than them simply believing this crap. Hating NATO is a Greek leftwing past time. Nearly 60% unfavourable! Chances are that anyone left of center loathes NATO and many others are at least distrustful of it. Russophile attitudes are hard to change as well. You cannot imagine how many people were obsessing with Russia saving us from the financial crisis as if Putin gave a shit. It was vastly better before the current war and it is bouncing back since "It is all NATO and the US' fault" just works well to people who hate NATO already.

We have some of those here in Canada as well. Most of the more vocal ones are people who listened to Chomsky once and think they have international relations all figured out by saying "USA bad". From there the train of immaculate logic inevitably flows towards "enemies of USA good" of one flavor of another. I assume a very similar phenomenon happens in Europe, often by just replacing USA with EU which is of course the easiest of all scapegoats to point towards.

And of course there's always a whole bunch of people like that other dude who are adept at blaming literally everyone but themselves for their country's problems. That's just a constant everywhere.

[Vampiregenesis]

We have some of those here in Canada as well. Most of the more vocal ones are people who listened to Chomsky once and think they have international relations all figured out by saying "USA bad". From there the train of immaculate logic inevitably flows towards "enemies of USA good" of one flavor of another. I assume a very similar phenomenon happens in Europe, often by just replacing USA with EU which is of course the easiest of all scapegoats to point towards.

And of course there's always a whole bunch of people like that other dude who are adept at blaming literally everyone but themselves for their country's problems. That's just a constant everywhere.

What I'm trying to say is that from the US perspective Ukraine is fighting for liberty or whatever, from our perspective Ukraine is fighting to change a bad master for another. We don't understand why the west is beneficial, we have not experienced it. I think most countries who want to join the EU look at Germany and they believe they will become like that when they join the Union, incredibly wealthy and democratic countries. It doesn't work like that. Georgia was smart enough to withdraw from this mess by enforcing the anti-european law. Their country stands just fine.

If countries like Germany, UK, France went to war with Russia it would make sense, they are economy powerhouses and they enjoy insane benefits, so Putin's aggression could be disruptive for them, it makes absolutely no sense for small and poor countries in the EU to do the same.

Have fun explaining to the beaten up European that he/she should take Putin seriously.

[Nymrohd]

What I'm trying to say is that from the US perspective Ukraine is fighting for liberty or whatever, from our perspective Ukraine is fighting to change a bad master for another. We don't understand why the west is beneficial, we have not experienced it. I think most countries who want to join the EU look at Germany and they believe they will become like that when they join the Union, incredibly wealthy and democratic countries. It doesn't work like that. Georgia was smart enough to withdraw from this mess by enforcing the anti-european law. Their country stands just fine.

If countries like Germany, UK, France went to war with Russia it would make sense, they are economy powerhouses and they enjoy insane benefits, so Putin's aggression could be disruptive for them, it makes absolutely no sense for small and poor countries in the EU to do the same.

Have fun explaining to the beaten up European that he/she should take Putin seriously.

No, most countries look at Poland and the Baltics and the vast improvement in quality of life after joining the EU.

[Jastall]

What I'm trying to say is that from the US perspective Ukraine is fighting for liberty or whatever, from our perspective Ukraine is fighting to change a bad master for another. We don't understand why the west is beneficial, we have not experienced it. I think most countries who want to join the EU look at Germany and they believe they will become like that when they join the Union, incredibly wealthy and democratic countries. It doesn't work like that. Georgia was smart enough to withdraw from this mess by enforcing the anti-european law. Their country stands just fine.

If countries like Germany, UK, France went to war with Russia it would make sense, they are economy powerhouses and they enjoy insane benefits, so Putin's aggression could be disruptive for them, it makes absolutely no sense for small and poor countries in the EU to do the same.

Have fun explaining to the beaten up European that he/she should take Putin seriously.

Ukraine is fighting to keep existing as an independant country, mostly, and to exist within a sphere of influence that might not be perfect, but is darn better than Russia's in every way that matters. You think the EU is so bad for Greece, consider how good Russia is and historically has been for, say, Georgia (lol at your "stands just fine", not like they got invaded when they became uppity or anything) or Kazakhstan, or you know Ukraine itself.

As I said, this reads very much like you deciding to blame everyone but your countrymen for what your country is up to. Your choice of course, but that's not going to improve things.

[Vampiregenesis]

No, most countries look at Poland and the Baltics and the vast improvement in quality of life after joining the EU.

What? The situation is still terrible over there.

We don't even know how the quality of life was there during the soviet union outside of west propaganda but I'm pretty sure that it's not good at all right now.

[Makabreska]

What? The situation is still terrible over there.

We don't even know how the quality of life was there during the soviet union outside of west propaganda but I'm pretty sure that it's not good at all right now.

I'm Polish, I know. You are absolutely full of shit.

[YUPPIE]

"Influence" and "control" are different things entirely.

No, it's literally "control" and not "influence" with Zelenksy. "Influencing" giving him a compelling reason to not do something, but still letting it be up to him; "Controlling" is outright warning him not to do something or the plug (aid) will be pulled.

Like he wants to go all-in on getting Crimea back or hitting Moscow at its heart, but he's being directly controlled not to. That's why he throws those low-key tantrums and criticisms at the EU and US in public speeches, condemning them for their "double standards" and cowardice of overly provoking Russia.

[DarkTZeratul]

No, it's literally "control" and not "influence" with Zelenksy. "Influencing" giving him a compelling reason to not do something; "Controlling" is outright warning him not to do something or the plug will be pulled.

Like he wants to go all-in on getting Crimea back or hitting Moscow at its heart, but he's being controlled not to. That's why he throws those low-key tantrums and criticisms at the EU and US in public speeches.

"Here's some stuff, but you can only use it for specific things" is not controlling Zelensky, any more than you'd be "controlling" a friend by giving him $20 to spend on dinner.

[Vampiregenesis]

I'm Polish, I know. You are absolutely full of shit.

Btw Poland is not a member of Eurozone so they still have their own monetary policy. The wages there look worse than Greek ones but I guess the cost of living is adjusted towards their wages. Greece was not too bad during the European Union times, the highest damage was caused during the Eurozone era. We had our monetary policy prior to that. I want to see what you will do when you eventually swap your zloty for Euro.

[Sunseeker]

Damn! Those goalposts must have a V8 at at the rate theyre moving!

[Nymrohd]

Btw Poland is not a member of Eurozone so they still have their own monetary policy. The wages there look worse than Greek ones but I guess the cost of living is adjusted towards their wages. Greece was not too bad during the European Union times, the highest damage was caused during the Eurozone era. We had our monetary policy prior to that. I want to see what you will do when you eventually swap your zloty for Euro.

And no one forced us in? Simitis cheated his way in. The EU is not to blame for that? But ofc it's never our fault, it is always someone else conspiring against us!