Russian invasion of Ukraine

[YUPPIE]

Who is that?

Uhm, op, you are linking pravda.ru, uh...that's a tabloid, that's like linking daily mail or something...

There is a similar thread from april "Russia threatening to invade Ukraine 2.0"
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...hlight=ukraine

really, u should have a mega thread so u can keep going year after year "dem ruskiz r coming!!!"

lots of shit came up today
https://www.gpsworld.com/russia-issu...ps-satellites/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nes-putin-says
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...pt-2021-11-30/

they're not fucking around anymore

[Egomaniac]

lots of shit came up today
https://www.gpsworld.com/russia-issu...ps-satellites/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nes-putin-says
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...pt-2021-11-30/

they're not fucking around anymore

It's called sabre rattling

[YUPPIE]

It's called sabre rattling

ukraine is a serious issue for putin's prized authority. Eventually, he will need to take action. Why couldn't it be now?

[Calfredd]

ukraine is a serious issue for putin's prized authority. Eventually, he will need to take action. Why couldn't it be now?

Between your sexual arousal over the prospect of WW3 and Kokolums' hard-on for Civil War 2, I'm surprised you two aren't good friends.

[AntiFascistVoter]

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg lays it out in an speech earlier



"It's only Ukraine & 30 NATO allies that decides when Ukraine is ready to join NATO. Russia has no veto, Russia as no say & Russia has no right to establish a sphere of influence to try to control their neighbors". "They try to re-establish some kind of acceptance that Russia has a right to control what neighbors do or not do. That is a kind of world we don’t want to return to, where big powers have a say or a kind of right to put limitations on what sovereign independent nations can do."
"I'm coming from a small country bordering Russia. & I am glad that our NATO allies have never respected that Russia has a kind of right to establish a sphere of influence in the north. To establish what Norway, as a small, independent country can do or not do - and that is exactly the same for Ukraine"


He argues Russia's perception that Ukraine seeking to join NATO is a provocation by the alliance is wrong. NATO simply respects the decision of a sovereign Ukraine.
"Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation with internationally recognized borders, guaranteed by Russia & all the other powers. Those borders... should be respected & that includes of course Crimea as part of Ukraine and Donbass as part of Ukraine. So this idea that NATO support to a sovereign nation is a provocation is just wrong. It is to respect the sovereignty of the will of the Ukrainian people. So I think that tells more about Russia than about NATO. NATO is a defensive alliance. NATO is not a threat to anyone. But NATO respects the decision of countries - like the Baltic countries, Poland when they decided to join and we also respected the decision of Ukraine that they aspire to NATO membership. We have stated that they will become a member but of course it is up to us - 30 NATO allies - to decide when Ukraine is ready for membership, when they meet the NATO standards.
"We help them on their way towards membership with reforms with support, with fighting corruption, with building defense and security institutions..."

[YUPPIE]

that's a bold statement but russia has nukes. I say "bold" because it implies if russia crosses a line with ukraine, nato will squash putin like a fly with no hope of retaliation.

[Lanrefni]

All NATO has to do to put Russian into an economic meltdown is take out a few oil and gas pipelines,which can be done quickly and quietly and the blame pinned on some one else.

[DarkAmbient]

All NATO has to do to put Russian into an economic meltdown is take out a few oil and gas pipelines,which can be done quickly and quietly and the blame pinned on some one else.

Can't see that being given the green light considering how reliant Europe is on Gazprom.

[Easo]

Right, so there are couple of things to note:

1. There have been small movements for about ~1-2 months, but most of that is not "interesting". There is something happening, but not enough to fully sound the alarms yet, or ever.
2. Ukraine has issue with propaganda, which has barely, if at all evolved from the Soveiet one. They have lost propaganda war with Russia long time ago. They have been screaming for so long that rarely anyone even cares anymore. Read - a lot of this is empty air coming form Kiev.
3. Shit said on Russian media is increasing in tempo, especially yesterday with Putin pretty much saying that "republics" are not YET recognized by Russia. Take it as you will.

Guesses are from Putin lacks balls like back in 2014 (not taking Donbas Crimea style and pretty much leaving them to their fate with minimum support, a version popularish on Russian interwebs) to waiting for NS2 to start working (which does not mean it can't be blocked afterwards by Germany...) so that existing Ukrainian pipes don't matter that much to just that simply nothing actually important is going to happen and that this is just warning/scare politics.

Potential sidenotes are involving Belarus responsing to Ukrainian attack (obvious bullshit provocation) during military drills with Russia and thus having Russia invading from whole Belarus + Russia border, not just Donbas.

If Russia launches a full scale invasion of Ukraine in December, Shalcker will be denying it until February at least.

Oh, on this I can everyone here can agree.

All NATO has to do to put Russian into an economic meltdown is take out a few oil and gas pipelines,which can be done quickly and quietly and the blame pinned on some one else.

That is not how it works.

Can't see that being given the green light considering how reliant Europe is on Gazprom.

And vice versa Gazprom (Russia) on our money.

[caervek]

He argues Russia's perception that Ukraine seeking to join NATO is a provocation by the alliance is wrong. NATO simply respects the decision of a sovereign Ukraine.

I can fully see Russia roflstomping Ukraine to avoid them joining NATO, they already did the same thing to Georgia.

But in fairness, it's hard to blame Russia for seeing Ukraine potentially joining NATO as provocation considering NATO (which was basically founded as a "lets gang up on Russia" club) previously swore they would never admit a state east of Germany, provided they could admit Germany.

Lets be honest here, the USA practically lost it's shit when the Russians started building nuclear silos in Cuba, if they had gone the whole hog and admitted Cuba into the Soviet Union it would have been treated by Washington as a defacto declaration of war. And yet the west feigns confusion as to why Russia doesn't want a NATO member with a shared border, it's cringeworthy.

Personally I'm happy NATO is still around as it makes me feel safer with Putin's sabre rattling going on, however part of me does wonder if there would be any sabre rattling going on (or even a Putin presidency) if NATO had just disbanded after the USSR dissolved and it's job was done.

[Easo]

I can fully see Russia roflstomping Ukraine to avoid them joining NATO, they already did the same thing to Georgia.

But in fairness, it's hard to blame Russia for seeing Ukraine potentially joining NATO as provocation considering NATO (which was basically founded as a "lets gang up on Russia" club) previously swore they would never admit a state east of Germany, provided they could admit Germany.

Lets be honest here, the USA practically lost it's shit when the Russians started building nuclear silos in Cuba, if they had gone the whole hog and admitted Cuba into the Soviet Union it would have been treated by Washington as a defacto declaration of war. And yet the west feigns confusion as to why Russia doesn't want a NATO member with a shared border, it's cringeworthy.

Personally I'm happy NATO is still around as it makes me feel safer with Putin's sabre rattling going on, however part of me does wonder if there would be any sabre rattling going on (or even a Putin presidency) if NATO had just disbanded after the USSR dissolved and it's job was done.

I would say it is precisely because of NATO there are no "people's republics" in east of Latvia and Estonia. NATO was pretty much reducing their strength since the end of Cold War aside from modernization until events in Ukraine happened while Russia was, on the contrary, growing/restoring it.
Maybe if Kremlin had different leader chosen back in 1999, maybe, who knows. We can only guess now.

Also - NATO has never promised not to expand eastwards. That event has no basis outside Russia's propaganda, they haven't provided a single piece of paper confirming it. And once more - it is not Russia's rights to choose what other nations does, we joined by our own free will, something Moscow cannot understand at all due to good old imperialist thinking and "zones of influence" mentality.

[Easo]

I disagree. Its not because of NATO, but because of Russian government's shitshow and because of EU. NATO has nothing to do with it.

What those regions get from Russia: empty promises that never lead to anything helpful, massive corruption, poverty.

What those regions get from EU: investments that improve life, access to the rest of Europe. EU has spent many millions helping our countries, financing almost all big projects and improving quality of life. Also if people have Russian passports, but Estonian/Latvian residency, they can travel freely in both Russia and EU, getting best option.

So really, as much as some politicians love to spread fear about possibility of those regions joining Russia, it was never a reality and people wouldn't want that. Their life is much better as it is now. NATO has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, back to topic... 1st December is almost over, still few hours left for imminent coup that was announced by Ukraine. I guess it was just more bullshit.

EU has basically nothing to do with military, Russia is whining about military expansion. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

Coup, of course, was a total bullshit. By Ukraine, it has to be pointed out, which is why I said about their failure in regards to propaganda.

[PC2]

What would happen is they would duke it out, then one side wins, and then the world keeps turning.

Russia just wants attention, they want us to think they're this big powerful force when they're really not. Russia is mostly just a distraction that is good for scaring Americans and Europeans.

[YUPPIE]

Russia just wants attention, they want us to think they're this big powerful force when they're really not.

they have a debauched killer as their leader with a cabal of the world's scariest underworld figures. And nukes.

Didn't Obama even say Russia is the greatest threat to national security and democracy

They're not pushovers or all bark

[PC2]

they have a debauched killer as their leader with a cabal of the world's scariest underworld figures. And nukes.

Didn't Obama even say Russia is the greatest threat to national security and democracy

They're not pushovers or all bark

Well I don't think there is much to worry about with Russia. Russia is too close to being a static society rather than a dynamic society that experiences rapid change and innovation. If they don't reverse that then they won't be able to surpass the West, and their smaller numbers put them at a disadvantage with China.

Regarding warfare I'm not too worried about that either, the USA and China and Russia just like to saber-rattle and act like tough guys, nobody wants real large scale war and mass death.

[Ihavewaffles]

Also - NATO has never promised not to expand eastwards. That event has no basis outside Russia's propaganda, they haven't provided a single piece of paper confirming it. And once more - it is not Russia's rights to choose what other nations does, we joined by our own free will, something Moscow cannot understand at all due to good old imperialist thinking and "zones of influence" mentality.

usa interfered in Cuba's internal affairs to host nukes, even though Cuba is another country, usa even threatened to start ww3.
But you say Russia is unreasonable to not want nato creep up to its borders? LOL

[Elegiac]

usa interfered in Cuba's internal affairs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[Easo]

usa interfered in Cuba's internal affairs to host nukes, even though Cuba is another country, usa even threatened to start ww3.
But you say Russia is unreasonable to not want nato creep up to its borders? LOL

That was way back in sixties, in the middle of this thing called Cold War. Probably before your parents were even born. Try to find a better comparision, please.

Look at first sentence in your post I've replied to and you'll see. You are saying that NATO is the reason Russian speaking regions of our countries are not leaving. My post replied to that.

What you have posted is a common misconception among many Estonians who have never actually talked to Russians that live in Estonia, many never even visited north-east, and easily believe nationalists propaganda. I guess it is the same in Latvia.

It could have been true to some extent in early 90s, when nationalists took power. Those vocal Russians who wanted out have moved to Russia long time ago and aren't missed by anyone here, and that was before NATO.

Little green men would not have asked who wants to leave or not and Donbas is yet another proof that people are easy to rile up. Yes, NATO is the direct reason there are no Latgale and Narva "republics". Your response about EU looks like some rant. It's literally about military alliance vs economy one, there is no comparision and it seems pretty obvious about which one Russia would be mad.

[Shadowferal]

usa interfered in Cuba's internal affairs to host nukes, even though Cuba is another country, usa even threatened to start ww3. But you say Russia is unreasonable to not want nato creep up to its borders? LOL

Are you saying it should have been okay to have enemy nukes 100mi from US shores?

[YUPPIE]

Russia has formally declared war just now. I knew this was coming.