Russian invasion of Ukraine

[YUPPIE]

NATO is just all bluster. For years now, they’ve let Russia torture, rape, and murder across Ukraine with impunity. I think that is why so many people have lost faith in it being anything but talk. If NATO could wipe out Russia before they even attempt MAD like you people claim, that rubs more salt in the wound because it means they could have ended this destructive conflict a long time ago but refuse to.

To me though, the truth is not that simple. I think the reality is it’s just that NATO is nowhere near as powerful as you people claim it is and an actual conflict with Russia would be rather evenly matched. Hence why they don’t want to directly face Russia other than as a last resort.

[Endus]

NATO is just all bluster. For years now, they’ve let Russia torture, rape, and murder across Ukraine with impunity. I think that is why so many people have lost faith in it being anything but talk.

NATO is a mutual-defense pact, not world police. Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and thus NATO doesn't come into the discussion at all regarding Ukraine.

Kudos on not even understanding the basics of what NATO even is.

To me though, the truth is not that simple. I think the reality is it’s just that NATO is nowhere near as powerful as you people claim it is and an actual conflict with Russia would be rather evenly matched. Hence why they don’t want to directly face Russia other than as a last resort.

Russia is currently "evenly matched" with just Ukraine. You just don't know what NATO even is or how it works, and need to shovel your Russian propaganda to earn your weekly rubles.

[alach]

Dude Nato is a military alliance.

You can see how strong Nato is by looking at the military of each member country in the alliance.

Outside Nato many countries also have individual alliances or defence pacts. The Scandinavias have on, some Balkan countries have some military alliances. Canada and the US have a defenceman pact, and so on. On top of that each country is still free basically to act on its own. If Polands government decided to go to war with Russia they would - without Nato involvement.

[Jessicka]

NATO is just all bluster. For years now, they’ve let Russia torture, rape, and murder across Ukraine with impunity. I think that is why so many people have lost faith in it being anything but talk. If NATO could wipe out Russia before they even attempt MAD like you people claim, that rubs more salt in the wound because it means they could have ended this destructive conflict a long time ago but refuse to.

To me though, the truth is not that simple. I think the reality is it’s just that NATO is nowhere near as powerful as you people claim it is and an actual conflict with Russia would be rather evenly matched. Hence why they don’t want to directly face Russia other than as a last resort.

Any one of a half dozen European NATO members could take Russia on their own at this point.

[YUPPIE]

Hype vs reality. Remember Russia was hyped up as a military superpower on par with the US before it exposed itself on a real battlefield in Ukraine. The US also hypes itself as a military superpower but got routed by little guys like the Taliban, Viet Cong, etc across history.

You should never mistake muscle posturing for factual strength. Just accept NATO is being pragmatic and only not seeking conflict with Russia due to losses and risks in mind, which is totally acceptable.

[Calfredd]

Hype vs reality.

You're the hype while the rest of us (well, most of us) are discussing reality.

[Jessicka]

Hype vs reality. Remember Russia was hyped up as a military superpower on par with the US before it exposed itself on a real battlefield in Ukraine. The US also hypes itself as a military superpower but got routed by little guys like the Taliban, Viet Cong, etc across history.

You should never mistake muscle posturing for factual strength. Just accept NATO is being pragmatic and only not seeking conflict with Russia due to losses and risks in mind, which is totally acceptable.

NATO isn't seeking conflict with Russia because its raison d'etre is to not get into conflict with Russia.

[YUPPIE]

NATO isn't seeking conflict with Russia because its raison d'etre is to not get into conflict with Russia.

it's the narrative that NATO would effortlessly destroy Russia with next to no losses if push did come to shove that bothers me

[Jessicka]

it's the narrative that NATO would effortlessly destroy Russia with next to no losses if push did come to shove that bothers me

At this point, with Russia held by Ukraine, militarily, it would. Any one of France, Germany, Poland, UK, Turkey, maybe even Italy would. Would they mange a long term occupation? Probably not, but that's not what NATO, or any of those predominantly defensive/force projection militaries are built for.

[Gabriel]

-> Airfield Hit
-> Deep in Russia
-> Gigantic Explosion

Now that Ukraine starts to form an airforce, would it be paranoid to think that Russia will start targeting NATO airfields where Ukrainian aircrafts are located? Russia did not do that until now because Ukraine did not have an airforce, but what now that they start importing aircrafts? they have to respond that, don't they?

Meanwhile Russia is very close at conquering Pokrovsk, they seem to have endless supplies of everything and a functional economy, the west underestimated the impact of Asia, it is the savior of Russia.

Please, God, just give this to me. It's all I've ever wanted.

[Endus]

Hype vs reality. Remember Russia was hyped up as a military superpower on par with the US before it exposed itself on a real battlefield in Ukraine.

By Russia. Nobody else believed that shit, dude.

You're still just pushing Russian propaganda in pursuit of your weekly rubles.

[Makabreska]

By Russia. Nobody else believed that shit, dude.

You're still just pushing Russian propaganda in pursuit of your weekly rubles.

Eh, peeps actually believed that. Maybe not on par with USA, but still. So many countries, USA included, expected a clean sweep in Ukraine. But to everyone surprise, orcs fumbled spectacularly. And only then the support for Ukraine started to pour in.

[YUPPIE]

By Russia. Nobody else believed that shit, dude.

Most people actually did. Hence the narrative Russia would steamroll Ukraine and why Zelenksy was offered a ride out.

[Deus Mortis]

Ukraine says they sunk another Sub while it was in port.

[Iphie]

Ukraine says they sunk another Sub while it was in port.

Word is that it is the same as previously damaged, but it got repaired. Now it is a permanent fixture of the Black Sea seafloor.

[PhaelixWW]

Now that Ukraine starts to form an airforce, would it be paranoid to think that Russia will start targeting NATO airfields where Ukrainian aircrafts are located? Russia did not do that until now because Ukraine did not have an airforce, but what now that they start importing aircrafts? they have to respond that, don't they?

Yes. Yes it's paranoid.

Ukraine has always had an air force, and it's been active since day 1, despite notoriously failed early attempts by Russia to gain air dominance. The Ukrainian Air Force has proved very resilient.

Ukraine has also been targeting Russian military targets in Russia for a long time. They've destroyed quite a few aircraft on the ground in those bases, too. Russia has obviously already been attacking Ukraine airbases throughout.

No, Russia is not going to attack NATO bases, for what should be damned obvious reasons. And no, those aren't Ukrainian fighters in NATO bases. They're not Ukrainian until they're transferred to Ukrainian territory.

Russia can't even effectively take on Ukraine, and you somehow think they're going to drag NATO into the fight?

Your ignorance is staggeringly acute.

- - - Updated - - -

NATO would not strike at Russia with this biblical retaliation you people hype up if Russia hit an airfield.

Depending on the attack, NATO would at the very least commit a reciprocal response, and likely more than reciprocal, though measured. Perhaps taking out several of Russia's air defenses and air bases. Whether Russia chose to respond after that is another matter.

No, NATO wouldn't go from 0 to scorched earth in 5 seconds, but you can bet your ass they would respond with force. Doing nothing would not be an option.

[Corvus]

Given how badly damaged the sub was first time around, I'm surprised they tried to fix it.

[PhaelixWW]

NATO is just all bluster. For years now, they’ve let Russia torture, rape, and murder across Ukraine with impunity. I think that is why so many people have lost faith in it being anything but talk.

Hey, you're just like Putin; you still somehow fail to understand that NATO was created to respond defensively, rather than offensively.

If NATO could wipe out Russia before they even attempt MAD like you people claim, that rubs more salt in the wound because it means they could have ended this destructive conflict a long time ago but refuse to.

Even IF NATO were an offensive organization, it's a grotesque thing to casually suggest that they should have an obligation to kill an order of magnitude more people than this war has already claimed just to "stop" it.

Not to mention that if NATO were to take over Russia militarily.... then what? Are you envisioning some kind of occupation of Russia? Please learn from history and tell us how well that would go. Would NATO destroy all military apparatus and then leave? How many additional lives would be lost in the chaos that follows? Wouldn't that just bring rise to a whole new era of international terrorism against NATO countries?

See, I know that your preferred answer is just to nuke the whole of Russia. You don't often come out and admit it so blatantly, but everyone can tell that's what you (not-so-)secretly yearn for. And it's disgusting.

To me though, the truth is not that simple. I think the reality is it’s just that NATO is nowhere near as powerful as you people claim it is and an actual conflict with Russia would be rather evenly matched. Hence why they don’t want to directly face Russia other than as a last resort.

I can't even begin to see how you can view Russia's struggles in Ukraine and claim that opinion out loud. NATO has been sending what amounts to outdated cast-offs to Ukraine (along with a much smaller sample of more modern tools) and those have been used to devastating effect.

And I think you also grossly underestimate the size disadvantage that Russia would face. NATO has like 2-3x the military personnel and 4-5x the hardware. And that was before Russia started getting their asses handed to them in Ukraine.

Russia's best chance to take out NATO would be a surprise attack, and we all know that's very, very unlikely in today's political climate.

- - - Updated - - -

Hype vs reality. Remember Russia was hyped up as a military superpower on par with the US before it exposed itself on a real battlefield in Ukraine. The US also hypes itself as a military superpower but got routed by little guys like the Taliban, Viet Cong, etc across history.

Oh, wow, your lack of knowledge and understanding of history is just painful to witness.

You should never mistake muscle posturing for factual strength. Just accept NATO is being pragmatic and only not seeking conflict with Russia due to losses and risks in mind, which is totally acceptable.

You're basically saying that the only reason you can imagine not jumping towards genocide is... a fear of weakness?

Careful, your sociopathy is showing.

- - - Updated - - -

Most people actually did. Hence the narrative Russia would steamroll Ukraine and why Zelenksy was offered a ride out.

Believing that Russia would overwhelm Ukraine, largely considering the disparity in the relative size of their militaries, is not the same thing as thinking that Russia's military was the equal of the US's military, let alone that of the whole of NATO.

And certainly any lingering belief in Russian military might has since evaporated into the smoke from all those oil refinery fires.

[Belize]

Given how badly damaged the sub was first time around, I'm surprised they tried to fix it.

They likely don't really have the means of replacing them with new ones at this point.

Can't imagine any of the drydocks in either the black sea or the sea of azov are super safe to have anything built in long term

[YUPPIE]

Not to mention that if NATO were to take over Russia militarily.... then what? Are you envisioning some kind of occupation of Russia? Please learn from history and tell us how well that would go.

germany and japan turned out well considering how evil they were before their defeat

and while both still have neo-nazi issues, they're doing great