Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Saradain]

We don't ? I mean, why should we care ?

Why ask if we can help another russian victim to be welcomed to civilized society? Something wrong with wanting Ukraine a better future?

[Attackrabbit]

Well, shit. I guess most of Europe will probably be due to recover from WWII in about 20+ years, then, right?

It's too bad for all the people in France, Germany, Poland, etc. that they're still living in unrecognizable, unrecoverable, uninhabitable land right now, huh? Trench warfare sucks. Hell, it might be another 100+ years for Japan because of the nukes, right?


...


What a fucking stupid notion.

Crack a book and educate yourself, kid, FFS.

While I'm loathe to back Yuppie up on anything and it's a relatively tiny example, you should perhaps check out the Zone Rouge, an area of France so fucked up by WW1 that it's still uninhabitable today. Yes alot of it is due to chemical warfare but the danger of unexploded standard munitions is still right up there :/

[PhaelixWW]

While I'm loathe to back Yuppie up on anything and it's a relatively tiny example, you should perhaps check out the Zone Rouge, an area of France so fucked up by WW1 that it's still uninhabitable today. Yes alot of it is due to chemical warfare but the danger of unexploded standard munitions is still right up there :/

Well, this is the line you're backing Yuppers up on:

Ukraine won't be a normal country for like 100+ years.

So... is that a statement you agree with?

[YUPPIE]

ukraine won't be a normal country for any foreseeable lifetime, no.

Addressing the war crimes, clearing out all the mines and traps, rebuilding. By normal country, of course I mean a country other people can visit for tourism or even migrate to. It will essentially be locked off from any of that business and become a hardened military state with extremely restricted and tight access.

And that's not a bad or unnatural thing. It's just life after a brutal and destructive war.

And another thing: This is a huge hypothetical for if Ukraine wins the war. War isn't over, and we have yet to see the further destruction Putin can unleash to make a true assessment for Ukraine's stability. For do not forget, Putin still has a few cards to throw everything about habitability out the window. And he's still bombing civilian areas in a tantrum against Ukraine's incursion.

[Belize]

TIL Vietnam isn't a normal country because it hasn't been 100+ years since the war there

[PhaelixWW]

ukraine won't be a normal country for any foreseeable lifetime, no.

Absolutely, unequivocally wrong.

Addressing the war crimes, clearing out all the mines and traps, rebuilding. By normal country, of course I mean a country other people can visit for tourism or even migrate to. It will essentially be locked off from any of that business and become a hardened military state with extremely restricted and tight access.

Absolutely, unequivocally wrong.

Point to any non-authoritarian country as an example. (Hell, even most authoritarian countries have tourism and migration.) And no, you can't pick countries that are still in a de facto state of war or civil war.

And that's not a bad or unnatural thing. It's just life after a brutal and destructive war.

Absolutely, unequivocally wrong.

Of course, it's bad and unnatural. And no, "life after a brutal and destructive war" consists of getting back to normal life.

And another thing: This is a huge hypothetical for if Ukraine wins the war. War isn't over, and we have yet to see the further destruction Putin can unleash to make a true assessment for Ukraine's stability. For do not forget, Putin still has a few cards to throw everything about habitability out the window. And he's still bombing civilian areas in a tantrum against Ukraine's incursion.

A lesson in how to say "nukes" without saying "nukes", huh? We see you.

But millions of people are still living in Ukraine. So it's hardly uninhabitable now, is it?

Again, hell, even if Putin were to win the war and Russia were to completely take over Ukraine, I can still guarantee you that there would be tourism and immigration long before your 100+ year timeline.

[Veggie50]

ukraine won't be a normal country for any foreseeable lifetime, no.

Addressing the war crimes, clearing out all the mines and traps, rebuilding. By normal country, of course I mean a country other people can visit for tourism or even migrate to. It will essentially be locked off from any of that business and become a hardened military state with extremely restricted and tight access.

And that's not a bad or unnatural thing. It's just life after a brutal and destructive war.

And another thing: This is a huge hypothetical for if Ukraine wins the war. War isn't over, and we have yet to see the further destruction Putin can unleash to make a true assessment for Ukraine's stability. For do not forget, Putin still has a few cards to throw everything about habitability out the window. And he's still bombing civilian areas in a tantrum against Ukraine's incursion.

Indeed, after WW2 all European countries previously occupied by the nazis became hardened military states for well over 100 years.

…wait, what do you mean that didn’t happen?! The first decades after WW2 were about booming economies due to the marshal plan?!

But it’s definitely different for Ukraine though. It’s not like several nations across the globe have openly spoken about preparing a new marshal plan for the rebuilding of Ukraine.

[PhaelixWW]

Indeed, after WW2 all European countries previously occupied by the nazis became hardened military states for well over 100 years.

…wait, what do you mean that didn’t happen?! The first decades after WW2 were about booming economies due to the marshal plan?!

But it’s definitely different for Ukraine though. It’s not like several nations across the globe have openly spoken about preparing a new marshal plan for the rebuilding of Ukraine.

It's crazy what a little bit of education and knowledge of history can tell us, right?

[YUPPIE]

I do think it will be different for Ukraine in rebuilding and reforming yes. Because with Nazi Germany, practically the whole world was against them and their allies in Italy and Japan were diminished and defeated or bordering on the inevitable then.

Should Russia be on such a verge or face outright defeat, Putin still has plenty of allies still standing to make life difficult for Ukraine. One of these allies is China.

[Sunseeker]

I do think it will be different for Ukraine in rebuilding and reforming yes. Because with Nazi Germany, practically the whole world was against them and their allies in Italy and Japan were diminished and defeated or bordering on the inevitable then.

Should Russia be on such a verge or face outright defeat, Putin still has plenty of allies still standing to make life difficult for Ukraine. One of these allies is China.

China doesn't give a shit about Ukraine. And they don't like Russia anywhere near that much to do anything on Russia's behalf.

[YUPPIE]

China doesn't give a shit about Ukraine.

They do actually, since they don’t want Ukraine falling into Western clutches.

Geopolitics.

[DarkTZeratul]

They do actually, since they don’t want Ukraine falling into Western clutches.

Geopolitics.

Where has China ever given that impression? Ukraine is half a world away from them. They're geopolitically irrelevant. China's only interest in the current conflict is exploiting it to buy cheap oil from Russia.

[Sunseeker]

They do actually, since they don’t want Ukraine falling into Western clutches.

Geopolitics.

Lawlz, you make some really dumb political hot takes, but this is a pretty fucking stupid one.

China has far greater concerns over it's neighbors and the Pacific, than having a foothold in Europe. And they completely lack the ability to project any economic, social or military power in the Eastern European region. Even if China cared, they couldn't do jack.

[PhaelixWW]

They do actually, since they don’t want Ukraine falling into Western clutches.

Geopolitics.

This is what happens when your entire education is based off movies.

Not to mention, even if what you're saying was true (which it isn't), it wouldn't really have an impact on Ukraine rebuilding their country.

[Calfredd]

Geopolitics.

Oh hey, another thing you are severely ignorant of.

[ringpriest]

Where has China ever given that impression? Ukraine is half a world away from them. They're geopolitically irrelevant. China's only interest in the current conflict is exploiting it to buy cheap oil from Russia.

Oh, I doubt that's Xi's only interest in this war, but Yuppie is so far off target as to be not even wrong.

Things Xi's government is likely watching with keen interest:

-just how modern warfare between near-peer combatants works out in practice
-how much damage Putin is doing to Russia's future
-Sibera
-just how desperate post-war Russia is going to be
-how much Russia's other neighbors, particularly those in Central Asia, want to avoid ending up like Ukraine (or worse)

[Veggie50]

Oh, I doubt that's Xi's only interest in this war, but Yuppie is so far off target as to be not even wrong.

Things Xi's government is likely watching with keen interest:

-just how modern warfare between near-peer combatants works out in practice
-how much damage Putin is doing to Russia's future
-Sibera
-just how desperate post-war Russia is going to be
-how much Russia's other neighbors, particularly those in Central Asia, want to avoid ending up like Ukraine (or worse)

Ironically I think Taiwan might want to send putin a fruit basket.

This shitshow made China think twice about trying some shit there.

[PhaelixWW]

Ironically I think Taiwan might want to send putin a fruit basket.

This shitshow made China think twice about trying some shit there.

Another reason not to give up sending aid to Ukraine.

[Specialka]

Why ask if we can help another russian victim to be welcomed to civilized society? Something wrong with wanting Ukraine a better future?

Only the western countries are civilized now ? And Ukraine needs more the West than the West needs Ukraine. So again, why should we care ? We already have our own issues to deal with.

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Oh hey, another thing you are severely ignorant of.

He is not the only one on this forum to be ignorant of how the world works.

[PhaelixWW]

He is not the only one on this forum to be ignorant of how the world works.

He sure isn't.