Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Specialka]

Why ask if we can help another russian victim to be welcomed to civilized society? Something wrong with wanting Ukraine a better future?

Only the western countries are civilized now ? And Ukraine needs more the West than the West needs Ukraine. So again, why should we care ? We already have our own issues to deal with.

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Oh hey, another thing you are severely ignorant of.

He is not the only one on this forum to be ignorant of how the world works.

[PhaelixWW]

He is not the only one on this forum to be ignorant of how the world works.

He sure isn't.

[Specialka]

He sure isn't.

Yes, and clearly, you should not talk about it

[alach]

Only the western countries are civilized now ? And Ukraine needs more the West than the West needs Ukraine. So again, why should we care ? We already have our own issues to deal with.

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He is not the only one on this forum to be ignorant of how the world works.

Since, Its the right thing to do, seems like a difficult concept for you, how about for purely selfish reasons?
Ukraine produces more than 10% of the wheat, corn, and barely in the world.
They are rich in iron ore. They have natural gas fields and oil discovered in the Black Sea.
They had a strong workforce of nearly 40 million.
And the rare metals themselves are more than worth the interest in keeping it out of Putins hands.

Russian President Vladimir Putin likes to put forward a lot of reasons for his full-scale invasion of Ukraine, but rarely a classic imperialist thirst for resources. However, a desire to secure key resources could be one of the genuine reasons Russian troops marched into Ukraine in February 2022. Rare earth metals, vital in the transition to renewable energy sources, currently lie untapped in Ukraine’s subsoil. Ukraine is believed to have the highest recoverable supply of rare earths in Europe as well as one of the largest lithium reserves, valued at 3 to 11.5 trillion dollars.
Ukraine

I'll stick with its the right thing to do, personally, as I feel like any country that wants a chance at real democracy should be given one.

Some reading on the subject for the next time someone says 'why should we care.'

Only Ukraine has this: the uniqueness of our land and its importance for the whole world

[PhaelixWW]

Yes, and clearly, you should not talk about it

Oh, sweet summer child...

Your "who gives a shit about anybody else" viewpoint is hopelessly myopic. If you can't see the benefits to helping Ukraine fight off Russia, then that's simply due to your lack of understanding.

[Specialka]

Since, Its the right thing to do, seems like a difficult concept for you, how about for purely selfish reasons?
Ukraine produces more than 10% of the wheat, corn, and barely in the world.
They are rich in iron ore. They have natural gas fields and oil discovered in the Black Sea.
They had a strong workforce of nearly 40 million.
And the rare metals themselves are more than worth the interest in keeping it out of Putins hands.



I'll stick with its the right thing to do, personally, as I feel like any country that wants a chance at real democracy should be given one.

Some reading on the subject for the next time someone says 'why should we care.'

Only Ukraine has this: the uniqueness of our land and its importance for the whole world

If only the world would work around the "right thing to do". Case in point about geopolitics.

[alach]

Oh, sweet summer child...

Your "who gives a shit about anybody else" viewpoint is hopelessly myopic. If you can't see the benefits to helping Ukraine fight off Russia, then that's simply due to your lack of understanding.

Or this. /10

[Specialka]

Oh, sweet summer child...

Your "who gives a shit about anybody else" viewpoint is hopelessly myopic. If you can't see the benefits to helping Ukraine fight off Russia, then that's simply due to your lack of understanding.

Oh, I see the benefit. It is a great field testing for western equipment and how current modern wars between two countries are fought. Given the global situation, it can come in handy. And it gives a good blow to Russia imperialist ambition (and indirectly to China's).

And in a long time, maybe we can welcome Ukraine in the West, but not today for now.

[Jessicka]

Time to rename the thread “Ukraine’s invasion of Russia” yet?

[PhaelixWW]

Since, Its the right thing to do, seems like a difficult concept for you, how about for purely selfish reasons?
Ukraine produces more than 10% of the wheat, corn, and barely in the world.
They are rich in iron ore. They have natural gas fields and oil discovered in the Black Sea.
They had a strong workforce of nearly 40 million.
And the rare metals themselves are more than worth the interest in keeping it out of Putins hands.

Russian President Vladimir Putin likes to put forward a lot of reasons for his full-scale invasion of Ukraine, but rarely a classic imperialist thirst for resources. However, a desire to secure key resources could be one of the genuine reasons Russian troops marched into Ukraine in February 2022. Rare earth metals, vital in the transition to renewable energy sources, currently lie untapped in Ukraine’s subsoil. Ukraine is believed to have the highest recoverable supply of rare earths in Europe as well as one of the largest lithium reserves, valued at 3 to 11.5 trillion dollars.

This video has been posted before ITT, but it covers what you're talking about and more.



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Oh, I see the benefit. It is a great field testing for western equipment and how current modern wars between two countries are fought. Given the global situation, it can come in handy. And it gives a good blow to Russia imperialist ambition (and indirectly to China's).

Those are only some of the benefits, hardly a complete list.

[Specialka]

This video has been posted before ITT, but it covers what you're talking about and more.



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Those are only some of the benefits, hardly a complete list.

Yep, could not be arse to do the whole thing, but in the end, we do not it because it is the "right thing to do", we do it because it serves us well, and it is in our interest to do so.

[PhaelixWW]

Yep, could not be arse to do the whole thing, but in the end, we do not it because it is the "right thing to do", we do it because it serves us well, and it is in our interest to do so.

We do it because it's both.

That should be easy to comprehend, and yet some people will just continue to wallow in their ignorance like a pig in mud.

[alach]

Yep, could not be arse to do the whole thing, but in the end, we do not it because it is the "right thing to do", we do it because it serves us well, and it is in our interest to do so.

You asked, why should we care.
You were given several different reasons why.
You can pick whichever ones suit you best, in the end does it really matter? I mean, great, thats fantastic, you cracked the code. The world is selfish and out only for their own national self-interests. Its not really a secret that countries look out for themselves first. But like many situations, there are many reasons to see Ukraine succeed and thrive, some of which are actually altruistic.

[Specialka]

We do it because it's both.

That should be easy to comprehend, and yet some people will just continue to wallow in their ignorance like a pig in mud.

When you are in charge of anything (apart charity organisation), you do not things because it is the right things to do (that's for movies), you do it because it serves the organisation or country you have in charge. That should be easy to understand. And if it is the right thing to do, it is a bonus.

[PhaelixWW]

When you are in charge of anything (apart charity organisation), you do not things because it is the right things to do (that's for movies), you do it because it serves the organisation or country you have in charge. That should be easy to understand. And if it is the right thing to do, it is a bonus.

Oh, sweet summer child...

You're talking about running a country like a for-profit corporation.

They are not the same.

But even a for-profit corporation knows the importance of good PR.

Even if you want to be grotesquely Machiavellian about it, "doing the right thing" can sometimes have its own positive value that outweighs the cost. In this case, of course, there are other benefits, over and on top of those from just "doing the right thing" that make this (what should be) an easy decision.

And yet here you are, weirdly protesting against it.

[Specialka]

Oh, sweet summer child...

You're talking about running a country like a for-profit corporation.

They are not the same.

But even a for-profit corporation knows the importance of good PR.

Even if you want to be grotesquely Machiavellian about it, "doing the right thing" can sometimes have its own positive value that outweighs the cost. In this case, of course, there are other benefits, over and on top of those from just "doing the right thing" that make this (what should be) an easy decision.

And yet here you are, weirdly protesting against it.

A good PR is still not doing the "right thing" for its own sake but again doing it because it suits us.

[PhaelixWW]

A good PR is still not doing the "right thing" for its own sake but again doing it because it suits us.

So I see you're agreeing to go the "grotesquely Machiavellian" route, eh?

Again, in this case "doing the right thing" does suit us. You've even admitted that it does.

It's like you can't really articulate why you think it's bad, but you have to blindly follow your herd in denouncing it.

Weird.

[Flarelaine]

When you are in charge of anything (apart charity organisation), you do not things because it is the right things to do (that's for movies), you do it because it serves the organisation or country you have in charge. That should be easy to understand. And if it is the right thing to do, it is a bonus.

Moral nihilism is one of the main sources of the sweeping success of populism we see lately.

[Veggie50]

A good PR is still not doing the "right thing" for its own sake but again doing it because it suits us.

Contrary to other posters, I do believe countries are run somewhat like for profeit enterprises. Your estimation that the west does not need Ukraine is off because of its short term views though.

Yes, in the short term getting Ukraine into western society will not pay dividends. This is what we call an ‘investment’. If the EU can provide fertile soil for Ukraine to flourish in, they will within a few decades:

- become an important consumer market
- be ideally placed on the perimiter of our current greatest threat
- provide us with cheap resources like grain, oil and minerals
- reduces the chance of a war someday coming to pass with the EU (not likely now I know, but this is a core tennent of the EU)

LOTS of benefits. They just require a long term view.

[Specialka]

Contrary to other posters, I do believe countries are run somewhat like for profeit enterprises. Your estimation that the west does not need Ukraine is off because of its short term views though.

Yes, in the short term getting Ukraine into western society will not pay dividends. This is what we call an ‘investment’. If the EU can provide fertile soil for Ukraine to flourish in, they will within a few decades:

- become an important consumer market
- be ideally placed on the perimiter of our current greatest threat
- provide us with cheap resources like grain, oil and minerals
- reduces the chance of a war someday coming to pass with the EU (not likely now I know, but this is a core tennent of the EU)

LOTS of benefits. They just require a long term view.

That's the best case scenario if everything goes well. Again, investment = risk, are we willing to take that risk ? Not my or our decision to make, but the question has to be asked.