Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Elegiac]

Oh, so now, there is better civilizations or values systems than other ? Time to spread democracy, guys !

I don't think you really thought this line of attack through.

"Oh, so you believe that government by consent of the governed is objectively better? Let me mock it by referring to an instance in which trying to externally impose government with dubious consent didn't work!"

Maybe workshop that a bit, and then take a moment to reflect upon the fact that "Ukraine is a victim of NATO imperialism" or whatever you're insinuating is Russian propaganda.

[Elder Millennial]

Oh, so now, there is better civilizations or values systems than other ?

Uhm, yes?

If you are looking for moral relativists you will have better luck with finding one in Beijing or Moscow.

And as others have mentioned and I mentioned in my first reply, "Liberal-democracy" and what it stands for and represents stands on its own merits, which is why countries like Ukraine aspire to it and fight for it. Defending it, is not the same as spreading it at gunpoint. Which is why the Iraq War for example was so wildly unpopular and considered to be a historical blunder.

[Shadowferal]

Oh, so now, there is better civilizations or values systems than other ? Time to spread democracy, guys !

Hmm...it all began in early 13th century with the "Magna Carta Libertatum" or simply the Magna Carta.

[Doomcookie]

Do you get some sexual thrill out of this? There's no reason to continue to do this shit so constantly as you do other than getting some weird thrill out of it.

Yes, he does. He's made threads about how much more attractive and magnetic "masculine" men like Stalin Are.

[Jessicka]

Hmm...it all began in early 13th century with the "Magna Carta Libertatum" or simply the Magna Carta.

I mean it’s been around in various forms since Ancient Greece and Rome. Probably before that even.

[Specialka]

Defending democracy from external attack is not the same thing as proselytizing. Just like NATO is not an offensive alliance.

Confusing those things is just blatant paranoia.

Was just finding funny to go all Helldivers on that one.

[Shadowferal]

I mean it’s been around in various forms since Ancient Greece and Rome. Probably before that even.

There are earlier examples, but they came and passed with no one the wiser, let alone aware of them. (Archeology wasn't a thing)
But the Magna Carta was the one that stuck...it took a lot of amending and reconfirming it..ideas in the charter, too popular to forget, an too stubborn to die. An influence in the bodies of law of the most powerful nations today.

[Specialka]

Uhm, yes?

If you are looking for moral relativists you will have better luck with finding one in Beijing or Moscow.

And as others have mentioned and I mentioned in my first reply, "Liberal-democracy" and what it stands for and represents stands on its own merits, which is why countries like Ukraine aspire to it and fight for it. Defending it, is not the same as spreading it at gunpoint. Which is why the Iraq War for example was so wildly unpopular and considered to be a historical blunder.

And it is so much better to spread it through economy and culture.

Btw, what is the opposite of moral relativism ?

[PhaelixWW]

And it is so much better to spread it through economy and culture.

Neither of which are possible if a foreign democracy is conquered by an authoritarian regime.

[Northern Goblin]

Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

The Kursk offensive has been nothing short of brilliant from Ukraine. They've established their front within Russian territory, and can now comfortably bunker down well in advance of winter, while countering the Russian meatgrinder in the south with one of their own.

The fact that the war has come to Russian soil, and marks the first time they've been invaded since WW2 has hit the public perception. I don't see how the Russians are going to be able to dislodge Ukrainian forces from Kursk without completely abandoning fronts within Ukraine itself.

This colossal fuck up of a war from Russia makes the Suez incident look like a slight error.

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There are earlier examples, but they came and passed with no one the wiser, let alone aware of them. (Archeology wasn't a thing)
But the Magna Carta was the one that stuck...it took a lot of amending and reconfirming it..ideas in the charter, too popular to forget, an too stubborn to die. An influence in the bodies of law of the most powerful nations today.

About fifty or so years before the Magna Carta was the Assize of Clarendon, which is the foundation of Habeas Corpus.

Democracy has been an evolutionary process for as long as written history exists, it will only continue to get better in time.

[diller]

Do you get some sexual thrill out of this? There's no reason to continue to do this shit so constantly as you do other than getting some weird thrill out of it.

I was infracted for saying that so don't be specific, lol.

[Elder Millennial]

And it is so much better to spread it through economy and culture.

Yes. Because those things add value to people's lives. The benefits are quantitatively measurable.

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The fact that the war has come to Russian soil, and marks the first time they've been invaded since WW2 has hit the public perception. I don't see how the Russians are going to be able to dislodge Ukrainian forces from Kursk without completely abandoning fronts within Ukraine itself.

They can. Sadly. But it will take time, and it will cost them.

The Ukrainians have the same problem as the one they created for Russia. Their resources are finite. And they can't keep trading land inside Ukraine if the Russian choose not to address the incursion in Kursk and just focus on pushing inside Ukraine.

The Russians will dislodge the Ukrainians from Kurks...eventually. But again, it will cost them. They'll have to throw tens of thousands of conscripts at this, level their own cities and villages as they did with towns and villages in Ukraine and after that they'll have to reinforce and actually defend everything from Belgorod to Bryansk or risk the Ukrainians just launching another attack somewhere else, and just stationing some barely out of highschool untrained kids won't cut it.

Arguably this incursion just made Russia's manpower problem way way way way way waaaaaay worse.

Realistically speaking...if they want to hold the line and keep pushing in Ukraine, dislodge the Ukrainians from Kursk and then defend the rest of the border...they WILL HAVE TO DO another mobilization, but at this moment I doubt the Kremlin feels like they have the political capital to get away with another mobilization.

Like if you're in the Kremlin this is a monumental shitshow right now, that's why they still haven't managed to come up with a coherent messaging strategy here. Another thing that the Kremlin is clearly struggling with is that we got the point that despite all the nuclear saber rattling...even Berlin seems to be mostly OK with Germans tanks rolling around in Kursk.

[Endus]

And it is so much better to spread it through economy and culture.

Providing a positive example of the benefits that others might choose to emulate in search of similar benefits for themselves is, yes, "better" than trying to force those values through military force.

Especially when once of those values is respecting sovereignty and self-direction.

Btw, what is the opposite of moral relativism ?

Moral absolutism is not strictly an "opposite" to moral relativism.

However, you don't seem to understand what moral relativism is, as there isn't anything about concepts like human rights which violate moral relativistic approaches. You're confusing legal concepts with moral ones. There are plenty of things most would agree to be "immoral" that are perfectly legal. Concepts of human rights form basic legal underpinnings. They aren't codes of morality.

[Edge-]

And it is so much better to spread it through economy and culture.

We tried this with Russia.

I think this thread is a pretty great example of how effective it's been as a strategy in Russia.

[Specialka]

Providing a positive example of the benefits that others might choose to emulate in search of similar benefits for themselves is, yes, "better" than trying to force those values through military force.

Especially when once of those values is respecting sovereignty and self-direction.



Moral absolutism is not strictly an "opposite" to moral relativism.

However, you don't seem to understand what moral relativism is, as there isn't anything about concepts like human rights which violate moral relativistic approaches. You're confusing legal concepts with moral ones. There are plenty of things most would agree to be "immoral" that are perfectly legal. Concepts of human rights form basic legal underpinnings. They aren't codes of morality.

I am confusing nothing. Just looking for a way to "name" those who look at the past with the values of today.

[Doomcookie]

I am confusing nothing. Just looking for a way to "name" those who look at the past with the values of today.

This seems like something that could be solved with a trip to Google.

[Specialka]

This seems like something that could be solved with a trip to Google.

Sorry, I thought this place was a place of discussion. My bad.

[Doomcookie]

Sorry, I thought this place was a place of discussion. My bad.

It seems weird to try and ask others to give words that fits the definition and narrative you are creating. How about you give us a word? That seems like the logical solution.

[Specialka]

It seems weird to try and ask others to give words that fits the definition and narrative you are creating. How about you give us a word? That seems like the logical solution.

Or I am asking if they know the word because I do not ? I am simply asking to share their knowledge if they have any. Hard concept to grasp, I am sorry.

[Doomcookie]

Or I am asking if they know the word because I do not ? I am simply asking to share their knowledge if they have any. Hard concept to grasp, I am sorry.

I think the word you are looking for is "Inquisitationalosity."