Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gabriel]

Did Ukraine just call Putin’s nuclear bluff?

Three weeks ago, Ukraine’s military launched a stunning operation to take the war in Ukraine back onto the territory of the country that launched it. Three weeks later, the Ukrainians still occupy hundreds of miles of territory in Russia’s western Kursk region.

The incursion had a number of goals: to force Russia to divert its forces from Ukraine to defend its own towns and cities; to seize territory that might later be used for bargaining leverage in peace negotiations; and to send a political message to the Russian people and their leaders that they are not safe from the consequences of the war launched by Russian President Vladimir Putin nearly two-and-a-half years ago.

But there was also a less obvious objective: Leaders in Kyiv likely hoped to send a message to their friends in the United States and Europe that their approach to the war has been overly cautious — that fears about “escalation,” “red lines,” and Russian nuclear use — a threat that Putin himself has voiced repeatedly — have been overblown.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy acknowledged this explicitly in a speech on August 19, saying, “We are now witnessing a significant ideological shift, namely, the whole naive, illusory concept of so-called ‘red lines’ refs somewhere near Sudzha” — a town near the border now under the control of Ukrainian forces.

He also confirmed that Ukraine had not informed its Western partners about the operation ahead of time, anticipating that they would be told “it was impossible and that it would cross the strictest of all the red lines that Russia has.” According to press reports, the Ukrainians predicted — correctly, as it turned out — that the West would not object too strongly once presented with a fait accompli.

“They were trying to push a boundary with their Western partners and what we’ve seen is that these partners have quietly accepted the new boundary,” said Liana Fix, fellow for Europe and the Council on Foreign Relations. In particular, they’re hoping the US will lift restrictions on using American-provided long-range missiles to strike deep into Russia, a step Washington has so far avoided.

The Ukrainian argument now is that, in effect, they have called Putin’s bluff and that it’s time for Ukraine’s allies to become much more aggressive in giving Ukraine the kind of support it needs to win the war...

...dangerous thinking.

You know what's dangerous? Thinking that we have to let Russia rape and pillage to their heart's content just because they have nukes.

[zealo]

Uh... I think even a casual perusal of just how many posters on this forum have a 10-year tag under their names would indicate that a fair number of those posters are over 33 years old.

Certainly not "almost no one".

Not only that, the actual youth of today don’t really hang out on traditional forums like they used to either. If you’re talking to someone on a place like this to begin with, no matter their account age, they’re much much more likely to be at least well past their teens and early 20s.

[PhaelixWW]

Not only that, the actual youth of today don’t really hang out on traditional forums like they used to either. If you’re talking to someone on a place like this to begin with, no matter their account age, they’re much much more likely to be at least well past their teens and early 20s.

...especially a politics forum, of all places. Even one attached to a gaming site.

[Kaleredar]

Not only that, the actual youth of today don’t really hang out on traditional forums like they used to either. If you’re talking to someone on a place like this to begin with, no matter their account age, they’re much much more likely to be at least well past their teens and early 20s.

Considering the general level of crass vitriol on these forums related to even WoW-type things... that's probably... good? Like imagine some 13 year old logging on here to say how much they like their cool new dragon person they made and they want to find cool transmog sets and someone tells them they're a scalie beta cuck for not wanting the buff drakonids instead and then someone else goes on a rant about how the game was better two years before the 13 year old was even born and someone else starts bitching about legiondaries. Yikes.


The first forum I was a part of when I was a kid was a Zoo Tycoon fan forum where they didn't allow swearing and everyone was pretty jazzed about the game and features and animals we'd like added because... well, why would you be there otherwise... And thankfully raging kekistan incels and gamergate nonsense and Russian troll farms weren't a thing at the time.

So yeah, I'm gonna say that kids not being on forums these days... probably a good thing. Of course they have to deal with tiktok, so... that's its own bundle of horribleness. But I feel like that has a slightly higher level of accountability in that you're generally watching a video with a person... so if someone is a Russian troll it's a lot harder for them to try and come off as a "concerned patriot" with an American flag profile pick and if someone is a raging kekistan meninist it loses a lot of its luster when you see that they're actually fat balding middle-aged man ranting about comic book movies, rather than just some prick behind a smug anime avatar or bust of a roman emperor or whatever.

[diller]

in for the memes at this point

So you are basically admitting to trolling?

[Veggie50]

I'm more shocked people in this thread doubt Russia's status as one of the US' foremost greatest enemies. It's been that way since even before WW2, and once Hitler and Imperial Japan were dealt with, hostilities resumed pretty much immediately.

ONE OF PUTIN'S VERY GOALS WITH THIS WAR is to start "a new world order" and dismantle what he sees as Western imperialism. These are things in his mind of course but it shows how much he hates the West.

And when people claim if the US cared they would instantly squash Russia, that would come with MAD. They're invested in this war because it's an opportunity for Russia to lose its power while having a proxy in Ukraine to do its battle without much risk as long as they control the direction and pacing of it.

And my toddler wants to marry his mom. I'm not worried she might divorce me for him.

[alach]

Can we take an informal poll on this real quick? Im curious.
Is there anyone who posts in this thread under 25?

Speaking of being old, I have a question concerning the 3 or 4 biggest threads here because they are related in many ways. Basically the Politics of Trump, Elon, Palenstine, and Russia. Generally the biggest threads under politics.
So this has been going on nearly a decade now, where someone posts some pro-Trump or Russia Stronk nonsense then other posters like Endus, or Breccia, spend pages countering them and explaining why they are wrong. There have been some pretty smart people here over the years, and arguements against the values of extremism in all of the largest threads, from cubby, to skroe, and so many more im sorry if you are excluded, have been well thought out, thorough, and succinct.
So my question is to all of you regular posters, still left after 10 years of battling the forces of misinformation, do you think we have made a difference?
Have we changed any minds?

[Iphie]

Can we take an informal poll on this real quick? Im curious.
Is there anyone who posts in this thread under 25?

I'm gen X, so well before the fall of the Soviet Union, hell, I recall the assassination of Sadat.

[Flarelaine]

Can we take an informal poll on this real quick? Im curious.
Is there anyone who posts in this thread under 25?

Speaking of being old, I have a question concerning the 3 or 4 biggest threads here because they are related in many ways. Basically the Politics of Trump, Elon, Palenstine, and Russia. Generally the biggest threads under politics.
So this has been going on nearly a decade now, where someone posts some pro-Trump or Russia Stronk nonsense then other posters like Endus, or Breccia, spend pages countering them and explaining why they are wrong. There have been some pretty smart people here over the years, and arguements against the values of extremism in all of the largest threads, from cubby, to skroe, and so many more im sorry if you are excluded, have been well thought out, thorough, and succinct.
So my question is to all of you regular posters, still left after 10 years of battling the forces of misinformation, do you think we have made a difference?
Have we changed any minds?

Anecdotal, but my mind was changed on Israel/Palestine by the discussion here (and, of course, the IDF being exposed as monsters).


ps. Also while my basic stance did not change on the other issues, these boards supplied good sources to educate me on the nuances.

[Corvus]

I'm gen X, so well before the fall of the Soviet Union, hell, I recall the assassination of Sadat.

Funny story about that - i was a kid flying with my family to England and we landed around Cairo just after it happened. We were not allowed off the plane and armed soldiers were stationed around it until we left.

[Gorsameth]

Can we take an informal poll on this real quick? Im curious.
Is there anyone who posts in this thread under 25?

Speaking of being old, I have a question concerning the 3 or 4 biggest threads here because they are related in many ways. Basically the Politics of Trump, Elon, Palenstine, and Russia. Generally the biggest threads under politics.
So this has been going on nearly a decade now, where someone posts some pro-Trump or Russia Stronk nonsense then other posters like Endus, or Breccia, spend pages countering them and explaining why they are wrong. There have been some pretty smart people here over the years, and arguements against the values of extremism in all of the largest threads, from cubby, to skroe, and so many more im sorry if you are excluded, have been well thought out, thorough, and succinct.
So my question is to all of you regular posters, still left after 10 years of battling the forces of misinformation, do you think we have made a difference?
Have we changed any minds?

Its not just about changing minds. It also about giving a counter voice. If you just let the troll/misinformation posters post freely without pointing out how full of bullshit they are other people who are not read up on the subject can come along and see nothing but the misinformation and assume that it is true.

[Jessicka]

Anecdotal, but my mind was changed on Israel/Palestine by the discussion here (and, of course, the IDF being exposed as monsters).


ps. Also while my basic stance did not change on the other issues, these boards supplied good sources to educate me on the nuances.

I think this level of the conflict in general has changed a lot of minds, not just as a result of this thread but the amount of shit that used to get ignored and brushed under the rug because "operations" and therefore its time in the news cycle would usually be over fairly quickly, is getting to see the light of day.

[Shadowferal]

So my question is to all of you regular posters, still left after 10 years of battling the forces of misinformation, do you think we have made a difference?
Have we changed any minds?

You'd have to go back a little farther than 10yrs.
An acquaintance of mine had me thinking "John McCain for President." I said to him that if he chooses a good vp you might convince me. Well, all I heard from him after the vp was chosen was a whispered "Sarah Palin?...shit I no longer have a party."
I could never convince him to go blue, though he had some admiration for Obama later.

As for here, I think most of the conservative posters are probably in the same boat, but unlike my above acquaintance can't admit it. They may have voted for him in '16, but I have to believe that seeing him in all his...unglory, repulsive, revolting grasping incoherent creature, they're likely to sit this election out.

[Poopymonster]

You'd have to go back a little farther than 10yrs.
An acquaintance of mine had me thinking "John McCain for President." I said to him that if he chooses a good vp you might convince me. Well, all I heard from him after the vp was chosen was a whispered "Sarah Palin?...shit I no longer have a party."
I could never convince him to go blue, though he had some admiration for Obama later.

As for here, I think most of the conservative posters are probably in the same boat, but unlike my above acquaintance can't admit it. They may have voted for him in '16, but I have to believe that seeing him in all his...unglory, repulsive, revolting grasping incoherent creature, they're likely to sit this election out.

Don't worry, 8 years from now you won't find a single person on here who voted for Trump.
They hated him from the start. Racist, rapist, liar, etc. Terrible business that is. They would never vote for someone like that.
Just ask them.

SSDD.
Same Shrub, Different Dickhead.

[Iphie]

so...didn't have this on my bingocard.

I doubt it means they changed sides but still, surprising.

[Flarelaine]

so...didn't have this on my bingocard.

I doubt it means they changed sides but still, surprising.

The map suggests it came from the south. That may be all the reasoning.

[alach]

Sounds like Ukraine lost a F-16, along with one of the few trained pilots they have. He was seen giving interviews on western news several times over the last year A true hero.

[Elder Millennial]

Sounds like Ukraine lost a F-16, along with one of the few trained pilots they have. He was seen giving interviews on western news several times over the last year A true hero.

Note.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2024-08-29/

It was a crash and not Russian fire.

[YUPPIE]

so...didn't have this on my bingocard.

I doubt it means they changed sides but still, surprising.

if you forgot to post a link, no, Belarus will never betray Russia despite apparent recent tensions.

[Doomcookie]

if you forgot to post a link, no, Belarus will never betray Russia despite apparent recent tensions.

But, will you ever betray Russia?

That's the real question.