Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Nilinor]

I really truly feel there are 2 things at play here.

On one hand, there still seems to be some lingering institutional notion/bias/perception or whatever you want to call it, that considers Russia to be a "partner country". Some sort of reasonable actor which is driven by reasonable objectives and can be "reasoned" with. Despite every single piece of evidence pointing to the contrary. This inertia also plays into the success of Russian propaganda and political meddling in the West, as institutional actors remain broadly unwilling to do what it would really take to reign that shit in.

On the other hand there are still some, especially in the US, "Cold Warriors" of the Mearsheimer sort, who are looking at this conflict as some "big brained long term, realpolitik game" where they are at the same time want to "erode" Russia, but are at the same time terrified of the geopolitical uncertainty that would come from Ukraine /The West winning.

I think its mostly cause the total collapse of the russian government from unrestricted attacks by Ukraine with Allied weapons would be more costly than just the slow seemingly unending march to wear down the resolve.

The cost to rebuild Russia after the war if this was done would be more expensive that just giving our weapons to Ukraine. I think that's also one of the reasons (besides China intervening) that very few want Korea united, the insane costs to rebuild the nation would be enormous.

[Saradain]

I think its mostly cause the total collapse of the russian government from unrestricted attacks by Ukraine with Allied weapons would be more costly than just the slow seemingly unending march to wear down the resolve.

The cost to rebuild Russia after the war if this was done would be more expensive that just giving our weapons to Ukraine. I think that's also one of the reasons (besides China intervening) that very few want Korea united, the insane costs to rebuild the nation would be enormous.

W-w-why would we in the western world care to help Russia rebuild at all? No contract is worth anything to Russia, their daily hobby is war crimes, they have made it very clear that their nation only exists to subjugate and wipe out any non-ethnic russian...?

[Canpinter]

I think its mostly cause the total collapse of the russian government from unrestricted attacks by Ukraine with Allied weapons would be more costly than just the slow seemingly unending march to wear down the resolve.

The cost to rebuild Russia after the war if this was done would be more expensive that just giving our weapons to Ukraine. I think that's also one of the reasons (besides China intervening) that very few want Korea united, the insane costs to rebuild the nation would be enormous.

Even if the west says fuck it and let's Russia rot after a hypothetical government collapse it would create a huge amount of issues, unpredictable nuclear proliferation and a mass refugee crisis for starters. The west wants Russia to back off and hopefully for one of Putins underlings to put a bullet in him, but a full failed state would be an even worse disaster.

[Iphie]

W-w-why would we in the western world care to help Russia rebuild at all? No contract is worth anything to Russia, their daily hobby is war crimes, they have made it very clear that their nation only exists to subjugate and wipe out any non-ethnic russian...?

You know that's unfair, not every russian is like that. On a more practical note, it's easier to not have to rebuild every 20-30 years or so if we can get that revanchism out of them. (fat chance I know.)

[Doomcookie]

You know that's unfair, not every russian is like that. On a more practical note, it's easier to not have to rebuild every 20-30 years or so if we can get that revanchism out of them. (fat chance I know.)

I think the problem is that the majority are. Putin is only leaving when they drag is cancer-ridden corpse out the door. The Russian people still largely support him, and don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the victims of the Russian government.

[Iphie]

I think the problem is that the majority are. Putin is only leaving when they drag is cancer-ridden corpse out the door. The Russian people still largely support him, and don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the victims of the Russian government.

I'm sure a lot do, but it's difficult to take polls seriously coming from russia. It's not as if they aren't fabricated, you know? Point taken though.

[PhaelixWW]

You know that's unfair, not every russian is like that. On a more practical note, it's easier to not have to rebuild every 20-30 years or so if we can get that revanchism out of them. (fat chance I know.)

From outward appearances, at least, Putin is the driving force behind the revanchist attitude. He was only a Lt. Colonel in the KGB when the USSR fell, and now that he has the authoritarian power of the Russian presidency, he wants the remembered prestige of the entire USSR to go along with it.

In the same sense that the events of WWI bled into WWII via Hitler's backstory, Putin's backstory bridges the two Russian eras, despite the 20-30 year gap. I'm not sure how well that revanchism will survive his eventual ouster/death, especially since the world as a whole is unsuited to let him have anything close the amount of early success that Hitler enjoyed before he was eventually brought down.

There's every chance that the "dream of empire" will essentially die with him, at least as a real tangible threat to anyone outside Russia. One can hope, at least.

[Doomcookie]

I'm sure a lot do, but it's difficult to take polls seriously coming from russia. It's not as if they aren't fabricated, you know? Point taken though.

I fully understand that the citizens of a country are not their government. But, I do not see a whole lot of opposition to Putin's 3-day operation in Ukraine. We didn't see it when he did the same with Crimea. We didn't see much when he murdered those in his way. We didn't see much when he stomped on free speech and gay rights.

The bar for Russian citizens is quite low, and they still can't find a way to reach it.

[PhaelixWW]

I fully understand that the citizens of a country are not their government. But, I do not see a whole lot of opposition to Putin's 3-day operation in Ukraine.

Stoic acceptance is still better than enthusiastic support, even if it's not the active resistance that we'd hope for.

[Doomcookie]

Stoic acceptance is still better than enthusiastic support, even if it's not the active resistance that we'd hope for.

That's true. As a whole, the Russian public has been rather muted when it comes to this war. I'm not sure if this is a result of them understanding it's bad policy, or the fact that a majority of the world is slamming them on social media.

[Saradain]

You know that's unfair, not every russian is like that. On a more practical note, it's easier to not have to rebuild every 20-30 years or so if we can get that revanchism out of them. (fat chance I know.)

I simply do not have any faith in Russia behaving in near future. Not unless they're utterly crushed like Germany was. But that's not gonna happen.

Just leave Russia to rot, let the people forcibly take the riches off the oligarchs. But then that wouldn't work either...

Still, fuck Russia. I don't want to see western world bleed even further money to aid an enemy to humanity after they've been taught a lesson. China, would ya help us in this pickle, maybe landgrab the fuck out of Russia and annex them?

[PhaelixWW]

That's true. As a whole, the Russian public has been rather muted when it comes to this war. I'm not sure if this is a result of them understanding it's bad policy, or the fact that a majority of the world is slamming them on social media.

I think that's just the prevailing Russian attitude to the world; Russian stoicism is a real thing.

It does, unfortunately, mean that they're prone to passively propping up a corrupt system of government, but again, that's way better than rabid fanaticism. The Russia government's penchant for corruption has been its own worst enemy, as we've found out.

[Easo]

russia literally murdered 50+ people today in what is described as the worst attack of 2024 on Ukraine.

I am not asking for US military intervention, but please stop the #escalation and #condemnation bullshit. All I am asking for is a proportional response sanctions-wise. And that's reasonable.

Meh, daily Ukrainian losses are into hundreds (incoming screams about me lying). Do you really think 50 people matter?
Sure, we all know people are shocked when a plane falls and 100 people die - but no one cares about thousands killed in road accidents over a year.

Not sure what this all means, but a big shake-up is coming in the Ukrainian government.

BREAKING: FM Kuleba submits letter of resignation

Good, one of the big pieces of shit is gone. Poland is definitely celebrating now.

[Edge-]

Meh, daily Ukrainian losses are into hundreds (incoming screams about me lying). Do you really think 50 people matter?

Civilian and combatant casualties are generally treated differently, yes. Especially when the civilian casualties are because the nation is striking hospitals and schools. Though the notable aspect was that it was 50 in a single strike, which is larger than usual. But I get that context might be inconvenient when you're looking to dismiss everything.

Sure, we all know people are shocked when a plane falls and 100 people die - but no one cares about thousands killed in road accidents over a year.

Is this one of those Russian sayings? You'll need to translate the context for me as a non-Russian because I must be missing the moral of this story.

[Nymrohd]

What's actually sad is that we as the collective West have not given Ukraine enough help so they could flatten the Kremlin with long range strikes.

My question by this point is, would they actually stop if we allowed Ukraine to attack Russian military installations with long range weapons with impunity?

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I think that's just the prevailing Russian attitude to the world; Russian stoicism is a real thing.

It does, unfortunately, mean that they're prone to passively propping up a corrupt system of government, but again, that's way better than rabid fanaticism. The Russia government's penchant for corruption has been its own worst enemy, as we've found out.

What you are describing is apathy, not stoicism. Stoicism is meant to be virtuous.

[Doomcookie]

Meh, daily Ukrainian losses are into hundreds (incoming screams about me lying). Do you really think 50 people matter?
Sure, we all know people are shocked when a plane falls and 100 people die - but no one cares about thousands killed in road accidents over a year.



Good, one of the big pieces of shit is gone. Poland is definitely celebrating now.

So, why do you want the bad guys to win?

[YUPPIE]

“It’s sad Russia keeps killing kids like that” puts the blame on Russia, your phrasing puts the blame on everybody else.

yes I do in fact blame the West as well. Russia keeps doing this but America in particular sternly reins in Ukraine on how they attack Russia by comparison (don't do this, don't do that, etc). It's why Ukraine will conduct operations like the current incursions while keeping their "benefactors" in the dark before they happen.

[Calfredd]

yes I do in fact blame the West as well. Russia keeps doing this but America in particular sternly reins in Ukraine on how they attack Russia by comparison (don't do this, don't do that, etc). It's why Ukraine will conduct operations like the current incursions while keeping their "benefactors" in the dark before they happen.

Drunk delusions or pathological liar? You decide!

[YUPPIE]

So for some context, in response to the fury at yesterday's mass murders, the Pentagon firmly reminds Ukraine who is boss

he United States has not changed its policy of restricting the use of provided weapons for strikes deep in Russian territory, said Pentagon spokesperson Brigadier General Patrick Ryder in a briefing.

Different allies started allowing Ukraine to strike military targets deep inside Russia in May 2024, when Moscow launched a ground assault north of the Kharkiv region. Back then, America approved short-range attacks to defend the Kharkiv region and then the entire state’s border. However, long-range attacks on Russian territory were still prohibited.

[PhaelixWW]

yes I do in fact blame the West as well. Russia keeps doing this but America in particular sternly reins in Ukraine on how they attack Russia by comparison (don't do this, don't do that, etc). It's why Ukraine will conduct operations like the current incursions while keeping their "benefactors" in the dark before they happen.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

The only restrictions that the West are putting on Ukraine is in very specific regards to the aid that's been given to them. And even then, the restrictions are hardly extensive. Ukraine has and has always had mostly free rein on how they choose to fight this defensive war that Russia thrust them into.

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So for some context, in response to the fury at yesterday's mass murders, the Pentagon firmly reminds Ukraine who is boss

What a garbage take.

Rather, the US reminds Ukraine about the binding contract they agreed to when they received the free military aid.

Your fanfiction "spin" is just grossly absurd.