Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gabriel]

Violating airspace is not an attack. Shooting down manned military aircraft, even if they wander into your airspace, is an unprovoked attack; the airspace violation itself is not sufficient provocation to warrant destruction unless it's coupled with more threatening behavior.

So hypothetically, if Russia began launching drone attacks at Ukraine from say Kalingrad through Polish airspace, it wouldn't warrant any sort of response beyond maybe shooting down the drones?

We're pushing back without lashing out, which is an important distinction. The US and EU have, as I mentioned, sent literally hundreds of billions of dollars/euro of aid to Ukraine. How many Russian deaths do you think are a direct result of the aid that's been sent already? What situation do you think Ukraine would be in right were it not for that aid?

On the contrary to popular belief, what I write on the internet about the Russo-Ukrainian war is not dictated by my desire to see more dead Russians, but to see fewer dead Ukrainians.

Shocking, I know.

Turkey also issued many warnings to the fighter before it was shot down, to which it responded to none. If something similar happened today, it would likely be justified.

But that's not the same thing as indiscriminately shooting down all aircraft that violate NATO airspace.

And Poland, Romania, and Latvia are not Turkey. Again, this wouldn't be a NATO response unless there was an actual attack that triggered Article 5.

Then let NATO issue a public statement to Russia that it will not allow any further use of its airspace for striking at Ukraine.

...And then start shooting down all Russian military aircraft that violate NATO airspace anywhere near Ukraine.

We understand that this isn't a fucking video game, that's what.

Yuppie truly has done a number on this thread by managing to equate all calls for military action against Russia with the drunken ravings of a madman. A truly admirable psyop by the sociopath in charge of that account.

[Jessicka]

Would a new NATO stance of pre-emptively warning Russia that any russian unmanned aircraft entering NATO airspace being shot down without further warning suffice?

Somehow I don't believe in restrictions loosening up for a while because escalation fears while Russia already escalated what they started in 2014...

No, because then they’d blow up ours which routinely violate their airspace. Until they or we hit a manned one.

[Gabriel]

Okay, here's another take on this.

If Russia were to push NATO to the point of wanting to really wanting to respond to these violations, rather than sending NATO weapons/forces directly into Russia to attack some random airbase, it would be far better to just loosen the reins on Ukraine's use of long-range weapons. Maybe give them some more. Let Ukraine, who is already at war with Russia, launch that attack. They're the ones who were actually attacked by the drones, anyway.

That way, you save the obvious escalation and make that WW3 scenario less likely.

I'm all for using Western alphabet agencies to blow shit up in Russia and letting Ukraine take the credit for it.

[PhaelixWW]

Would a new NATO stance of pre-emptively warning Russia that any russian unmanned aircraft entering NATO airspace being shot down without further warning suffice?

Somehow I don't believe in restrictions loosening up for a while because escalation fears while Russia already escalated what they started in 2014...

Well, I've already said that I believe shooting down drones is a much simpler prospect; they're just materiel. What I was getting stuck on was the escalation of 1) shooting down manned aircraft that enter NATO airspace, and 2) actually launching a retaliatory strike on a Russian airbase from a NATO country.

So step 1 would be shooting down drones that come into NATO airspace. Step 2 might even be helping to shoot down drones/missiles in Ukraine airspace, too (which Poland has talked about). Step 3 would be loosening the reins and giving more long-distance weapons to Ukraine to allow them to strike further into Russia. Step 4 would be... well, we don't want to see step 4.

[Gorsameth]

Hey remember that time Turkey didn't bother asking questions and just shot down a Russian military aircraft that violated its airspace and Russia had to suck it up?
Pepperidge farm remembers.

Russia has spend decades taunting and violating Western airspace because they know we will do nothing back. Screw that, if they want to fuck around they can find out.

"but what if.." what if what. Don't violate sovereign airspace is not a big question to ask and not an unreasonable demand by any stretch of the imagination.

[Saradain]

No, because then they’d blow up ours which routinely violate their airspace. Until they or we hit a manned one.

Ours are violating their airspace? Where exactly?

[Poopymonster]

Okay, here's another take on this.

If Russia were to push NATO to the point of wanting to really wanting to respond to these violations, rather than sending NATO weapons/forces directly into Russia to attack some random airbase, it would be far better to just loosen the reins on Ukraine's use of long-range weapons. Maybe give them some more. Let Ukraine, who is already at war with Russia, launch that attack. They're the ones who were actually attacked by the drones, anyway.

That way, you save the obvious escalation and make that WW3 scenario less likely.

Given humanity in general, I could see a digital counter of dead Ukrainians, in real time.
"Well, if 82,000 more Ukrainians are killed, that'll be quota and we can let them attack Moscow."
But what about dead Russians?
"If we let too many of them die too fast before we meet our goals, we won't look like benevolent peacekeepers. We want to make them indebted, I mean, we have to rebuild for the fewest living people possible. Better ROI. Space out the slaughter, we need time to make more fresh ammunition for ourselves before we let them use the rest of our old stuff on Putin."
I..I didn't know. I'm sorry for my ignorance. Praise Sithrak.
"No worries, Praise Sithrak."

[PhaelixWW]

So hypothetically, if Russia began launching drone attacks at Ukraine from say Kalingrad through Polish airspace, it wouldn't warrant any sort of response beyond maybe shooting down the drones?

How on earth is that "wandering into your airspace"? I can also pretty much guarantee that those drones would be flying over populated areas, and as such would be considered far more threatening than crossing the border by just a few miles.

Still, that "response" would be unlikely to be an attack on a Russian airbase.

On the contrary to popular belief, what I write on the internet about the Russo-Ukrainian war is not dictated by my desire to see more dead Russians, but to see fewer dead Ukrainians.

Shocking, I know.

And without that aid from US/EU, Ukraine likely wouldn't exist right now. That aid has definitely saved Ukrainian lives. But we were talking about a NATO response to violations of NATO airspace and what it would look like.

Then let NATO issue a public statement to Russia that it will not allow any further use of its airspace for striking at Ukraine.

...And then start shooting down all Russian military aircraft that violate NATO airspace anywhere near Ukraine.

Better, but still unlikely if that includes manned aircraft. Though those violations are much less likely near Ukraine.

Yuppie truly has done a number on this thread by managing to equate all calls for military action against Russia with the drunken ravings of a madman. A truly admirable psyop by the sociopath in charge of that account.

Despite my initial statement, I don't actually think you and Yuppers are anything alike. I think you're just itching to do something more proactive because you don't like what Russia is doing to Ukraine. I absolutely understand that even if I don't always agree with the method.

Yuppers, on the other hand, just wants WW3 because he's bored and wants entertainment.

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Hey remember that time Turkey didn't bother asking questions and just shot down a Russian military aircraft that violated its airspace and Russia had to suck it up?

That's not at all what happened. That Russian fighter was warned ten times to avoid Turkey's airspace before it was shot down.

[Iphie]

Virtually every picture you see of TU-95 “Nuclear bombers” being escorted by NATO aircraft are the spy variants.

If you believe flying a reconnaissance MiG or RF-18 makes you a “more valid” as a target than aircraft you deny even exist then maybe you’d be interested in buying a bridge?

Right, yes in such cases you should be safe as well, but I wouldn't call those "hostile" skies, just "unfriendly".

[Jessicka]

Ours are violating their airspace? Where exactly?

Well the Black Sea for one, remember the UAVs in "disputed" air space getting buzzed and fuel dumped? You still use U2s for fuck sake. Similarly shipping in that area, and in the South China Sea? I mean shit, the Royal Navy had troops captured by Iranians while totally not spying on a "training mission" in "disputed" waters. It's absolutely routine, and as with the poster suggesting flying an RF-18 made you a more valid target than flying something that doesn't officially exist, if you think it isn't, then I might just have a bridge for you as well.

[Saradain]

Well the Black Sea for one, remember the UAVs in "disputed" air space getting buzzed and fuel dumped? You still use U2s for fuck sake. Similarly shipping in that area, and in the South China Sea? I mean shit, the Royal Navy had troops captured by Iranians while totally not spying on a "training mission" in "disputed" waters. It's absolutely routine, and as with the poster suggesting flying an RF-18 made you a more valid target than flying something that doesn't officially exist, if you think it isn't, then I might just have a bridge for you as well.

So what's wrong for being zapped for entering a sovereign state's airspace without permission then? Sounds like fair game to me - and I would have harder time believing that someone would even accidentally mistake manned flight with a drone, even the bigger types...

Far odder to allow Russia just freely go through NATO airspace to commit genocide.

[zealo]

Russia won't do shit if even a manned aircraft gets shot down over an intrusion into the airspaces of NATO countries, for the simple fact that Russia doesn't actually want a conventional war with NATO over such an incident even if it were to happen. It's just yet another red line that can be walked all over without any meaningful response from them.

[Jessicka]

So what's wrong for being zapped for entering a sovereign state's airspace without permission then? Sounds like fair game to me - and I would have harder time believing that someone would even accidentally mistake manned flight with a drone, even the bigger types...

Far odder to allow Russia just freely go through NATO airspace to commit genocide.

Everyone does it, that’s why getting ‘zapped’ for it is not considered okay. When people start getting trigger happy like that, then accidents happen.

As it was eloquently put earlier, it’s not a fucking video game.

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Russia won't do shit if even a manned aircraft gets shot down over an intrusion into the airspaces of NATO countries, for the simple fact that Russia doesn't actually want a conventional war with NATO over such an incident even if it were to happen. It's just yet another red line that can be walked all over without any meaningful response from them.

One, as Turkey managed while they strayed after operating over Syria, sure, you announce it as a policy, the world is going to be pissed and you can expect to start losing your own toys.

[Saradain]

Everyone does it, that’s why getting ‘zapped’ for it is not considered okay. When people start getting trigger happy like that, then accidents happen.

As it was eloquently put earlier, it’s not a fucking video game.

Suppose all we can do is to wag our fingers at the passing genocide machines then. That'll make them regret their actions...

Not an ideal world we live in. I can see more and more how the western civilization is partially responsible for this war prolonging itself. But at least Ukraine may be worth something after the war to exploit.

[Benggaul]

Russia won't do shit if even a manned aircraft gets shot down over an intrusion into the airspaces of NATO countries, for the simple fact that Russia doesn't actually want a conventional war with NATO over such an incident even if it were to happen. It's just yet another red line that can be walked all over without any meaningful response from them.

Correct. Russia dares not advance past sabre rattling because it would then become obvious that what's in their scabbard is just a stick.

[Attackrabbit]

So what's wrong for being zapped for entering a sovereign state's airspace without permission then? Sounds like fair game to me - and I would have harder time believing that someone would even accidentally mistake manned flight with a drone, even the bigger types...

Far odder to allow Russia just freely go through NATO airspace to commit genocide.

FYI. Drone just means unmanned vehicle and there are plenty of examples of older planes being 'turned into' drones so it's perfectly possible to mistake a manned flight with a drone flight...

[Jessicka]

Suppose all we can do is to wag our fingers at the passing genocide machines then. That'll make them regret their actions...

Not an ideal world we live in. I can see more and more how the western civilization is partially responsible for this war prolonging itself. But at least Ukraine may be worth something after the war to exploit.

The right way to deal with it is to provide more and better material support for Ukraine. You can thank Trump and US Republicans for delays and failure to do that.

Changing an international dynamic and unspoken agreement regards overflying airspace wouldn’t be as helpful in Ukraine and potentially massively damaging in other parts of the world.

[Saradain]

The right way to deal with it is to provide more and better material support for Ukraine. You can thank Trump and US Republicans for delays and failure to do that.

Changing an international dynamic and unspoken agreement regards overflying airspace wouldn’t be as helpful in Ukraine and potentially massively damaging in other parts of the world.

Let's see how many more ukrainians have to die before we can turn the license to kill knob to eleven. Russia bad for invading, Russia not bad enough for allies to help...to let Ukraine defend effectively enough, but Russia bad for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The wheel of death keeps ever turning.

[Gabriel]

Let's see how many more ukrainians have to die before we can turn the license to kill knob to eleven. Russia bad for invading, Russia not bad enough for allies to help...to let Ukraine defend effectively enough, but Russia bad for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The wheel of death keeps ever turning.

But muh quality of life in my Western country.

Putin might say something that will make me shit my pants!

[Jessicka]

But muh quality of life in my Western country.

Putin might say something that will make me shit my pants!

Or rather, start shooting Russian stuff down over Poland and start losing yours and your allies stuff in the South China Sea.

Seriously I’ve said before I wouldn’t actually be opposed to putting NATO troops in Ukraine or enforcing a no fly zone over Ukraine.