1. #41501
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    IF NATO baits Russia into being the aggressors and starting WW3, would the ability to claim moral superiority real make it all worth it?

    Shooting down attack drones is one thing. Shooting down manned aircraft after multiple repeated warnings is another thing. But shooting down manned aircraft with no warning the second they cross into NATO airspace is just plain stupid and dangerously escalatory. It doesn't really matter if you think it's justified or not.

    Reality is not a video game. It's also not always fair. I can't believe that fact is news to anyone.
    What part of unmanned fully armed drones did you miss? And repeated warnings?

    Why do people think pre-emptive warnings and closing off airspace from russians is no longer allowed for sovereign nations? We can only warn unmanned drones while they're actively in the airspace, leaving it so shortly that there's simply no time to warn them on the go...

    World ain't fair, but only to western nations. For russians, anything is allowed.

  2. #41502
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    What part of unmanned fully armed drones did you miss? And repeated warnings?
    The part where that wasn't the context of the post chain I responded to, which was:
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Start shooting down every single russian aircraft that crosses over and that will change...
    NATO had more balls in the 90s...Perhaps NATO should be allowed to just outright fly across Russia with fake arms supplies deliveries to Ukraine. If Russia shoots NATO planes down...

    And defending your own airspace is not an act of war. Turkey is not at war with Russia. Poland can warn russians to not fly over their airspace multiple times too.
    When you respond to a comment about shooting down "every single Russian aircraft", then talk about flying planes (not drones) over their airspace... then the context is not just drones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Why do people think pre-emptive warnings and closing off airspace from russians is no longer allowed for sovereign nations? We can only warn unmanned drones while they're actively in the airspace, leaving it so shortly that there's simply no time to warn them on the go...
    Unlike you, I was careful to specify that I wasn't talking about drones, so...


    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    World ain't fair, but only to western nations. For russians, anything is allowed.
    Not even remotely true, going by the massive amount of sanctions against Russia and the the hundreds of billions in aid being sent to Ukraine.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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  3. #41503
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Russia responds by telling Poland that shooting down their drones will be taken as a declaration of war.
    Ok, sure go declare war on NATO. see how long Russia survives the undivided attention of the US army.

    Russia would be bluffing and everyone knows it.
    How many 'red lines' has the West crossed already in this Ukraine conflict? How many more are going to get broken in the months to come?

    NATO shooting down Russian intrusions into NATO airspace will not trigger ww3. plain and simple.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #41504
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    many words
    Aight, you have a point or two. I'll just crack open my fave drink Fanta Berry and enjoy gaming, maybe one day the "simulation" allows Ukraine to properly defend itself more effectively. Shame all those deaths while "underclocking" the efficiency are very real.

    At least it's now very unlikely for my country to end up in a war. What do I care, it's not my war. I'll deal with it when or if it becomes one.

  5. #41505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    I'll add this not-so-related article how Russia conducts things in general.

    https://yle.fi/a/3-12664441



    Oh wew lad, Russia conducts its own trial, with no opposition allowed and no facts were hurt making this show.
    I have been wondering where that BS came from. Been squashing trolls who peddled this for a while now, this'll make it easier to debunk. Kiitos!

  6. #41506
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    To whom it may concern. At least Ukraine isn't wasting time fighting for their right to exist sovereign.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...side-pokrovsk/

    Ukrainian Reinforcements Are Counterattacking Outside Pokrovsk
    The Russian assault on the city is losing momentum, for now.

    As the Russian 2nd Combined Arms Army and adjacent units ground toward the Ukrainian stronghold of Pokrovsk in late August, some Russian observers cautioned against overconfidence on the part of the Russians.

    Yes, the 2nd CAA—dozens of regiments and brigades strong—outnumbers the Ukrainian force around Pokrovsk, the Tavriya operational strategic group, around four to one. Yes, the Ukrainians have been steadily retreating along the Pokrovsk axis since at least mid-February, when the Russians breached the defenses of the fortress city of Avdiivka on the axis’ eastern end.

    But despite assigning a dozen battalions from eight or so brigades to their surprise invasion of Russia’s Kursk’s Oblast, the Ukrainians seemed to have kept four or five brigades—each with up to 2,000 troops and hundreds of vehicles—in reserve. Russian propagandist Evgeny Norin described these units as “reasonably intact and well-equipped.”

    Now some of those reserves are finally joining the fight along the last line of trenches and fortified towns five or six miles outside Pokrovsk and its vital supply lines. “What is happening is exactly what was predicted—the Ukrainian armed forces have begun counterattacking,” one Russian blogger reported. And that’s helping stabilize the front line—at least for now.

    This has surprised some Ukrainian observers who blamed a lack of fortifications, rather than a lack of troops, for the Tavriya operational strategic group’s monthslong retreat east of Pokrovsk. “Not so long ago, there was public discourse suggesting that the deployment of additional brigades to the Pokrovsk direction wouldn’t make much difference,” Ukrainian analysis group Frontelligence Insight noted. “Yet, here we are, seeing that it does make a difference.”

    Don’t expect immediate dramatic changes around Pokrovsk. For now, the Ukrainian reinforcements—at a minimum, the national guard’s Kara-Dag Brigade and 12th Azov Brigade and the army’s 93rd Mechanized Brigade—are conducting small-scale counterattacks, the main effect of which has been to slow or slightly roll back Russian gains.

    But the Russians can’t afford to lose momentum. Every day they fail to advance is a day the Ukrainians can dig in and reinforce their positions around Pokrovsk ahead of the coming winter. That has implications for the whole wider war in Ukraine. “The upcoming battle for Pokrovsk will be the climax of the enemy’s offensive operation in the southwestern theater of operations in 2024,” the Ukrainian Center for Defense Strategies predicted.

    The Kara-Dag Brigade’s fierce actions in Selydove, a front-line town southeast of Pokrovsk, might be the most significant of the recent counterattacks. For days now, the brigade’s T-64 tanks have been blowing up and capturing Russian tanks and fighting vehicles trying to infiltrate Selydove along the main east-west road into town.

    The high terrain in and around Pokrovsk has the effect of channeling attacking forces into the city’s lower southern approaches. That also channels them into Selydove, whose peak elevation is around 100 feet below the highest ground in Pokrovsk.

    It’s fair to say the Russians must get through Selydove in order to have a clear shot at Pokrovsk. “Without securing the Selydove area, the enemy cannot sustain their offensive,” CDS explained.

    But now that fresh and well-equipped Ukrainian troops are in Selydove, and attacking, the Russian conquest of Pokrovsk—once seemingly inevitable—is looking a little less likely.

  7. #41507
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The fuck is Russia going to do?
    Russia, fuck all, but China? Potentially a lot. US and allied aircraft and shipping regularly get escorted out of Chinese airspace and waters. Not just the “disputed” areas.

    There’s other parts of the world as well where the decades old convention of not shooting down planes has probably saved an awful lot of lives and kept a lid on a lot of conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Russia, fuck all, but China? Potentially a lot. US and allied aircraft and shipping regularly get escorted out of Chinese airspace and waters. Not just the “disputed” areas.

    There’s other parts of the world as well where the decades old convention of not shooting down planes has probably saved an awful lot of lives and kept a lid on a lot of conflict.
    And what about China's reliance in the western markets? Western world sure as hell is going to be changed majorly if all cheap production labor ends from China...but China is not going to walk away with any intact legs from that change. Asking, just out of curiosity. Is it worth it for China to throw a tantrum if their vassal state Russia gets schooled? China is going to exploit Russia regardless.

  9. #41509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Russia, fuck all, but China? Potentially a lot. US and allied aircraft and shipping regularly get escorted out of Chinese airspace and waters. Not just the “disputed” areas.
    They may make a move towards Taiwan while USA is busy, but joining in to defend Russia? Rofl, no!
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  10. #41510
    China wants Western trade a hell of a lot more joining Russia in a war against NATO.

    Remember, this situation benefits China, Russia has been made China's bitch.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #41511
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    They may make a move towards Taiwan while USA is busy, but joining in to defend Russia? Rofl, no!
    Nothing to do with defending Russia, just making a statement of “this is how it works now”.

    You can’t make new conventions about airspace violations and expect the rest of the world not to follow.

  12. #41512
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    They may make a move towards Taiwan while USA is busy, but joining in to defend Russia? Rofl, no!
    The US military is intentionally designed to fight 2 wars at the same time. Possibly more.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...acific_Command PACOM is its own and distinct show from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ropean_Command EUCOM.

    They each have their own line up of ships, planes, ground forces etc. The US military has been structured like this since WW2.

    The idea that the US would be "distracted" from Taiwan if it had to slap down Russia is just goofy.
    Last edited by Elder Millennial; 2024-09-10 at 04:17 PM.

  13. #41513
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    The US military is intentionally designed to fight 2 wars at the same time. Possibly more.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...acific_Command PACOM is its own and distinct show from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ropean_Command EUCOM.

    They each have their own line up of ships, planes, ground forces etc. The US military has been structured like this since WW2.

    The idea that the US would be "distracted" from Taiwan if it had to slap down Russia is just goofy.
    The structure is there, but China has more ships than the entire US Navy, for example. And they are not scattered over the globe, either.

  14. #41514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    The structure is there, but China has more ships than the entire US Navy, for example. And they are not scattered over the globe, either.
    Quantity does have a quality of it's own.
    Tech will be where the difference is. Who has better "undetectable" sneakywaterbois, better armaments vs defensive capabilities, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  15. #41515
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    And what about China's reliance in the western markets? Western world sure as hell is going to be changed majorly if all cheap production labor ends from China...but China is not going to walk away with any intact legs from that change.
    Eh, it's a deep cut on both ends, i'd say.
    US possibly less so because they've been more active in distancing themselves from China.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Asking, just out of curiosity. Is it worth it for China to throw a tantrum if their vassal state Russia gets schooled? China is going to exploit Russia regardless.
    Tantrum is arguably the wrong word here but China has been playing both sides.
    They also at times play the "Nato is at fault as well" tune but at the same time also are not acknowledging Crimea as part of Russia.

    Essentially, if NATO would push hard in Russia (in whatever fashion), they'll presumably denounce it as aggression / escalation, possibly sent some weapons to Russia to balance the scales a bit but that's about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    The structure is there, but China has more ships than the entire US Navy, for example. And they are not scattered over the globe, either.
    China may have been investing into and modernising army hard, but it's all untested in actual conflicts.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  17. #41517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    The structure is there, but China has more ships than the entire US Navy, for example. And they are not scattered over the globe, either.
    The Chinese navy is tiny. Numbers? Yes, size? No.
    Heres an analysis based on displacement.
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  18. #41518
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    The structure is there, but China has more ships than the entire US Navy, for example. And they are not scattered over the globe, either.
    That's a bit of a misunderstanding of how this works.

    While it'st true that the Chinese navy has numbers, it doesn't have tonnage.

    As of 2022 the Chinese Navy stands at about 2 million tons of displacement. While the US navy sits at 4.5 million.

    In naval terms tonnage>numbers. Tonnage is synonymous with capability, in the sense that you can have 100 coastal patrol boats with a short range radar, a 20mm gun, and fitted with 8 short range ship to ship missiles, they won't do diddly fucking squat on a stick to 3 frigates that have actually half the aggregate tonnage of the 100 patrol ships but individually each have over the horizon radars, sonars, helicopters for extended radar range and 30 to 40 long range heavy ship to ship missiles. They will shit all over your 100 patrol boats and they would have no idea WTF happened to them.

    China can churn out ships, but they are not particularly good at building tonnage. Also only about half the current Chinese fleet has been built in the last 20 years. Most of the other ships are copies of 1960's Soviet designs.

    Also what the US classes as a "frigate" or a "destroyer" is quite a bit different than what most other navies class as frigates and destroyers. As a rule of thumb any US frigate or destroyer is around 40 to 50% larger than an equivalent Chinese class. Means they have a bigger power plant, more power for radars, room for equipment, electronics, missiles, helicopters etc.

  19. #41519
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    That's a bit of a misunderstanding of how this works.

    While it'st true that the Chinese navy has numbers, it doesn't have tonnage.

    As of 2022 the Chinese Navy stands at about 2 million tons of displacement. While the US navy sits at 4.5 million.
    Correct.

    But most of that tonnage is committed somewhere else. The US can't bring all their carrier groups to the South China sea. Very much because of the structure you mentioned - and because they are possibly the most emphatic way of Uncle Sam saying, "I have my eye on you". Removing them would send the opposite message.

    So if there was trouble around Taiwan, it would not be clearcut.

  20. #41520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Correct.

    But most of that tonnage is committed somewhere else. The US can't bring all their carrier groups to the South China sea. Very much because of the structure you mentioned - and because they are possibly the most emphatic way of Uncle Sam saying, "I have my eye on you". Removing them would send the opposite message.

    So if there was trouble around Taiwan, it would not be clearcut.
    The US currently has two carrier strike groups deployed near China, one in Okinawa, and one in the Sea of Japan. Three more carrier groups are deployed in the Indian Ocean off the Middle Eastern coast, fairly close by most reckonings. A single carrier group is in San Diego CA and another in Bremerton WA, again, not particularly far away.

    So no, the US, as usual, is well positioned to reaspond to Chinese aggression if necessary.

    Thats the perks of having 11 carrier strike groups. We are, quite literally, everywhere.

    And, quite frankly, we dont need to bring all 11 around. Chinese options for aggression are limited in the Pacific.
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