Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Lynarii]

Sure, but the warning signs were always there. Taking their fossil fuels and laundering their money should have been done with a lot more caution. But our own systems are too susceptible to meddling from rich foreign despots. What's worse is the refusal to learn from it, when we can see Emirates, Saudis and so on using the same playbook.

That's not a bug, it's a feature. Look at Farange, he only even ran for office in order to collect bribes. Everyone knows it, and he got elected primarily so people would have someone they know they can bribe at any point in that seat.

Western democracies are pretty open about being up for sale.

[Elder Millennial]

The problem Germany have with attempting to undermine things, is that aside from Hungary, pretty much the entire rest of the EU with the UK want to hand Russia its ass. They’ve been dragged kicking and screaming into supplying weapons and equipment, and will continue to be so.

Austria is hard in the "We love Russian money, but going to play along with the EU majority opinion as we don't want to turn them on us" ...in exchange they get all sorts of little carve outs to keep doing business with Russia.

Like Raiffeisenbank which is one of Russia's biggest bank and handles a lot of its international transactions. Raiffeisenbank was exempted from the list of companies sponsoring the Russian war in exchange for Austria consenting to the 12th sanction package back in December last year.

In March the US Treasury tried to force Raiffeisenbank to leave Russia or cut back it's operations, but as of today it has done neither.

Slovakia is another one that is mostly in the same camp as Austria, but a bit more vocal about forcing Ukraine into a negotiated surrender. They are somewhere between Hungary's Russian boot licking and Austria's "We don't really care" position.

All 3 of these mostly go along with the EU and NATO because they are just too small to risk raising too much of a fuss...except Hungary of course which has basically lost the plot completely, Austria and Slovakia are being a bit more pragmatic.

Bulgaria is another one where pro-Russian sympathies still run deep.

[PhaelixWW]

Western democracies are pretty open about being up for sale.

I think the implication that modern politicians are "for sale" is absolutely grotesque.





It's "for rent" at best.

[Elder Millennial]

Selling out to Russia is a big phrase and something of that magnitude is unlikely

I hope you are right, but I have grown very very skeptical of German politics, which seem to be defined by either making the absolute worst decisions with total confidence or a near complete inability to do anything. This has been a defining feature of German politics for the whole of the 21st century.

But still, I could see a "let's be neutral out of practicality and realpolitik" turn in Germany. Just enough to not be a full pro-Russia pariah state, but enough to start demanding the lifting of specific sanctions while withdrawing further aid to Ukraine.

The near psychotic obsession Germans have with penny pinching might heavily contribute to the latter.

[alach]

It sounds more concrete than donald trumps "concept of a plan", or Peter Quills 'Part of Plan."

Ukraine's Zelenskiy says 'victory plan' is ready

Sept 18 (Reuters) - President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Wednesday that his "Victory Plan", intended to bring peace to Ukraine while keeping the country strong and avoiding all "frozen conflicts", was now complete after much consultation.
...
While providing daily updates on the plan's preparation, Zelenskiy has given few clues of the contents, indicating only that it aims to create terms acceptable to Ukraine, now locked in conflict with Russia for more than 2-1/2 years.
"Today, it can be said that our victory plan is fully prepared. All the points, all key focus areas and all necessary detailed additions of the plan have been defined," Zelenskiy said in his nightly video address.
"The most important thing is the determination to implement it.
There was, Zelenskiy said, no alternative to peace, "no freezing of the war or any other manipulations that would simply postpone Russian aggression to another stage".

Guess we all have to wait awhile before finding out what the plan is. Hes said to submit it at the next UN general assembly, IIRC.

Also, just the headline should be enough,

Exclusive: Ammunition from India enters Ukraine, raising Russian ire


*smiley face*

[Gorsameth]

It sounds like such a PR thing that is almost certainly going to backfire when you can't realise it.
There is no simple, or complicated for that matter, 'victory plan' that you can just follow.

[Azadina]

The only victory plan that'll work is to just keep killing the terrorist orcs, until they fuck off. Half a million is clearly not enough. Perhaps few million would be?

[Iphie]

The only victory plan that'll work is to just keep killing the terrorist orcs, until they fuck off. Half a million is clearly not enough. Perhaps few million would be?

Nah, come back when we have more than 27 million casualties on the russian side, that's, after all, what Stalin's number is to defend the USSR. (for the record that would be disastrous for the russian demographics....I mean even more than these 600k + already are, I think we can then easily say that extinction of russia is not impossible)

[Azadina]

Nah, come back when we have more than 27 million casualties on the russian side, that's, after all, what Stalin's number is to defend the USSR. (for the record that would be disastrous for the russian demographics....I mean even more than these 600k + already are, I think we can then easily say that extinction of russia is not impossible)

It's a cliche answer, but I think times were different, even for Mordor. Sauron just doesn't have the power that Morgoth did. Funny business aside, I'm gonna asspull a number and say I don't think they can do 5 million before something cracks. Whether internal strife gets to the point of calling it, or they just do fuck off and agree to a peace deal before that.

[Jessicka]

It's a cliche answer, but I think times were different, even for Mordor. Sauron just doesn't have the power that Morgoth did. Funny business aside, I'm gonna asspull a number and say I don't think they can do 5 million before something cracks. Whether internal strife gets to the point of calling it, or they just do fuck off and agree to a peace deal before that.

Times were different, they were defending an existential war, they expected to lose people they knew. Now they're prosecuting a war nobody in Russia particularly gives a shit about the outcome, so long as it doesn't come home to them. The threshold will be significantly lower in that respect in terms of people noticing people they knew aren't there anymore.

[Kralljin]

But still, I could see a "let's be neutral out of practicality and realpolitik" turn in Germany. Just enough to not be a full pro-Russia pariah state, but enough to start demanding the lifting of specific sanctions while withdrawing further aid to Ukraine.

Again, i don't see that happening because that would mean Germany has to cut their Ukraine aid down to 0 to pretend that they're neutral, which in itself would already be a massive sea change as Germany is, in absolute terms, still a massive contributor to Ukraine.

And honestly, unless France's aid is mainly wrapped up in the EU funds, this is the major European power people should be talking about when it comes to not really delivering on Ukraine aid.

[Corvus]

Nah, come back when we have more than 27 million casualties on the russian side, that's, after all, what Stalin's number is to defend the USSR. (for the record that would be disastrous for the russian demographics....I mean even more than these 600k + already are, I think we can then easily say that extinction of russia is not impossible)

It's already disastrous for them. They just reported their lowest number of births in 25 years, and given those were official russian figures, it could be worse than they are admitting. The last time it was this low was 1999, when they were having problems.

There is a reason the official Kremlin policy is that women shouldn't be working but be pregnant in the kitchen, and if husbands have to encourage their wives to get pregnant, that is fine.

[Ripster42]

Nah, come back when we have more than 27 million casualties on the russian side, that's, after all, what Stalin's number is to defend the USSR. (for the record that would be disastrous for the russian demographics....I mean even more than these 600k + already are, I think we can then easily say that extinction of russia is not impossible)

27mil is only a bit less than 1/5 of the entire RF population. Men, women, and children. The RF has about 60mil fewer people than the USSR had when stalin was alive, when the demo pyramid actually looked like a pyramid and not a pillar. There's effectively no way the RF can hold up losing 27mil. They'd be toast long before that happened as there'd only be cripples and retirees left to staff businesses.

[Iphie]

It's already disastrous for them. They just reported their lowest number of births in 25 years, and given those were official russian figures, it could be worse than they are admitting. The last time it was this low was 1999, when they were having problems.

There is a reason the official Kremlin policy is that women shouldn't be working but be pregnant in the kitchen, and if husbands have to encourage their wives to get pregnant, that is fine.

Ah, yes, the good old domestic SA that is no longer criminal.

27mil is only a bit less than 1/5 of the entire RF population. Men, women, and children. The RF has about 60mil fewer people than the USSR had when stalin was alive, when the demo pyramid actually looked like a pyramid and not a pillar. There's effectively no way the RF can hold up losing 27mil. They'd be toast long before that happened as there'd only be cripples and retirees left to staff businesses.

Yes, quite aware, I'm just implying poo-tin doesn't have the foresight.

[KrayZ33]

The problem Germany have with attempting to undermine things, is that aside from Hungary, pretty much the entire rest of the EU with the UK want to hand Russia its ass. They’ve been dragged kicking and screaming into supplying weapons and equipment, and will continue to be so.

If Germany is being dragged screaming... what is France doing or for example Italy or Greece.
Germany provided like 2-3x more than them added together - with military aid alone - excluding humantarian or financial aid (which would make the difference even bigger by a multitude), and last time I checked, Germany's GDP isn't 3x the amount.


Do people even realise how much money goes into the Ukraine from Germany's side. And how many refugees are in Germany right now compared to, again - France or Italy?
Hate to redirect the anger, but I used to say this very early on in the war already, some nations really liked to talk big and blame Germany, even though they themselves provided very little/almost nothing.

I wish some of these other countries would have had put as much effort into providing aid as they were putting effort into trying to find the blame somewhere else.

[alach]

It sounds like such a PR thing that is almost certainly going to backfire when you can't realise it.
There is no simple, or complicated for that matter, 'victory plan' that you can just follow.

It was the main reasons the congressional republicans held up aid for Ukraine for nearly half a year. They were heard whining and moaning how they keep throwing money away without a plan. Or how it would be great to see a plan before we hand over more money in aid. Theres many a news clip out there with them asking for a plan.
Well, Zelensky spent a few months, and now has a plan to show them so they don't have an excuse next time.
Or they were all lying about it and actually want to help the kremlin.

[Specialka]

If Germany is being dragged screaming... what is France doing or for example Italy or Greece.
Germany provided like 2-3x more than them added together - with military aid alone - excluding humantarian or financial aid (which would make the difference even bigger by a multitude), and last time I checked, Germany's GDP isn't 3x the amount.


Do people even realise how much money goes into the Ukraine from Germany's side. And how many refugees are in Germany right now compared to, again - France or Italy?
Hate to redirect the anger, but I used to say this very early on in the war already, some nations really liked to talk big and blame Germany, even though they themselves provided very little/almost nothing.

I wish some of these other countries would have had put as much effort into providing aid as they were putting effort into trying to find the blame somewhere else.

Since Germany were the one that was sucking so much of that russian gaz, I would say that it is deserved and that they should put that much effort compared to others to atone.

[KrayZ33]

Since Germany were the one that was sucking so much of that russian gaz, I would say that it is deserved and that they should put that much effort compared to others to atone.

Lol.
What a stupid take. Before the war it was just "gas" as any other gas from any other country

Especially if you consider that countries like Austria and Italy *still* take Russian gas, same for France, while Turkey is laundering it for the EU in general.

[Jessicka]

If Germany is being dragged screaming... what is France doing or for example Italy or Greece.
Germany provided like 2-3x more than them added together - with military aid alone - excluding humantarian or financial aid (which would make the difference even bigger by a multitude), and last time I checked, Germany's GDP isn't 3x the amount.


Do people even realise how much money goes into the Ukraine from Germany's side. And how many refugees are in Germany right now compared to, again - France or Italy?
Hate to redirect the anger, but I used to say this very early on in the war already, some nations really liked to talk big and blame Germany, even though they themselves provided very little/almost nothing.

I wish some of these other countries would have had put as much effort into providing aid as they were putting effort into trying to find the blame somewhere else.

As much as they've given, Germany were very vocal about not doing it. That's what people remember, not how much they've eventually given which is thankfully a lot. But that's kind of the point I was getting at, I don't think there is much risk that Germany won't continue to provide aid. I get that probably for the local audience, there is a need to show some restraint, but globally it just hasn't been a great look. In the UK the sense is that as much as we're giving, we should do more and we should be letting them use the Storm Shadows freely, and nobody really gets why not, through that lens Germany's words seem off.

[Gorsameth]

It was the main reasons the congressional republicans held up aid for Ukraine for nearly half a year. They were heard whining and moaning how they keep throwing money away without a plan. Or how it would be great to see a plan before we hand over more money in aid. Theres many a news clip out there with them asking for a plan.
Well, Zelensky spent a few months, and now has a plan to show them so they don't have an excuse next time.
Or they were all lying about it and actually want to help the kremlin.

Oh I know this one.
Its the latter.