Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Azadina]

The outlines of Trumps 'peace' plan have been released.

Ukraine can not join NATO for 20 years (so after Trump and pootie are both dead).

Conflict freezes on current lines so russia gets to defect keep occupied territory (and I guess Ukraine keeps Kursk territory) but the US does not recognise it as russian.

A DMZ runs along the border, but the US and UN will not man it. European troops from places like Poland, Germany, France and the UK will have to do that.

The US will continue to provide military aid, but it will be withheld to force Ukraine to make peace or increased to force russia to make peace.

Good luck in getting russia, Ukraine or European nations in agreeing to that.

At this point in time, that'd be a pretty good deal for Ukraine. Alternatives are all worse. No NATO for 20 years, while pretty bad, is countered by that DMZ idea manned by European troops. That gives some security guarantee on ruZZia not attacking again.

Putler is not going to take that though.

[Deus Mortis]

At this point in time, that'd be a pretty good deal for Ukraine. Alternatives are all worse. No NATO for 20 years, while pretty bad, is countered by that DMZ idea manned by European troops. That gives some security guarantee on ruZZia not attacking again.

Putler is not going to take that though.

While 20 years seems too long, it would hopefully give Ukraine more than enough time to get the corruption under control so that they could fly through once they apply. I also agree, I do not see Putin agreeing to this as it will pretty much be Nato troops on their border. Sadly as time has moved on it is looking far more likely that Ukraine just does not have the manpower to take back their land. Really blows that the help they needed was so slow in arriving.

[Fugus]

At this point in time, that'd be a pretty good deal for Ukraine. Alternatives are all worse. No NATO for 20 years, while pretty bad, is countered by that DMZ idea manned by European troops. That gives some security guarantee on ruZZia not attacking again.

Putler is not going to take that though.

Putin would take it, then not honor it. Trump wouldn't force him to either.

Putin keeps what he has. Repairs and consolidates his power with aid from Trump and North Korea, then does another attack in the near future after he is ready and using American arms his soldiers were trained on how to use.

Trump wouldn't dare call out his employer for doing anything like that and would actively praise him for being tough when he did it. Also, by that time, NATO would be heavily fractured due to Trump or the US just withdrawn from it and likely backing Russia against NATO.

[Azadina]

While 20 years seems too long, it would hopefully give Ukraine more than enough time to get the corruption under control so that they could fly through once they apply. I also agree, I do not see Putin agreeing to this as it will pretty much be Nato troops on their border. Sadly as time has moved on it is looking far more likely that Ukraine just does not have the manpower to take back their land. Really blows that the help they needed was so slow in arriving.

It is infuriating that there are still restrictions on how to use given weapons to defend their country. They should have been given what they needed from the start, and with a note "weapons free". They would have won this, before ruZZia had a chance to mobilize an ever growing number of terrorists, not to mention over a year of time digging trenches, mine fields and fortifications against counterattack.

Just...Christ almighty. People learn nothing from history, and clearly not logical thinking either. "oh noooo putin has nookz, we better not do anything or else he....ends us and his whole country over a misadventure outside his country" .....?????? No, that's not how anything fucking works. And yet, that's the bullcrap people in power have kept repeating.

[alach]

The outlines of Trumps 'peace' plan have been released.

Ukraine can not join NATO for 20 years (so after Trump and pootie are both dead).

Conflict freezes on current lines so russia gets to defect keep occupied territory (and I guess Ukraine keeps Kursk territory) but the US does not recognise it as russian.

A DMZ runs along the border, but the US and UN will not man it. European troops from places like Poland, Germany, France and the UK will have to do that.

The US will continue to provide military aid, but it will be withheld to force Ukraine to make peace or increased to force russia to make peace.

Good luck in getting russia, Ukraine or European nations in agreeing to that.

Pretty sparse on details there. Not surprising. Sounds like trumps team is sending a "take it or else" message. Ukraine giving up land is going to be rough, but I don't know what else they can do now. russsia has ruined it all now anyways. No Nato but there are many other options besides that, most European countries have multiple defense pacts, like Canada, the US, Australia all do, maybe they could form half a dozen of those. No mention of stopping EU ascension either.
I just feel like Ukraine just needs a little more time, maybe one or two years, to have their own missile and defense program, sadly doesnt sound like they will get it.

[Dontrike]

That gives some security guarantee on ruZZia not attacking again.

What world do you live in? Putin would rush to get the military back on track as fast as possible and attack Ukraine within 5 years.

[Azadina]

What world do you live in? Putin would rush to get the military back on track as fast as possible and attack Ukraine within 5 years.

Through the mentioned European troops? If only putler was stupid enough to declare war on even one NATO nation, let alone half a dozen, which most likely would be what the troops would be made of. Let him. Let him get annihilated in war for once.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Yeah, what did he even do the first time around, he didn't really do anything he claimed he would - like build a wall.

3 Supreme Court Justices that, among other things, killed Roe v. Wade and made him basically immune from prosecution.

[Nymrohd]

I guess Ukraine's only real option is to have nuclear weapons again.

[Dontrike]

Through the mentioned European troops? If only putler was stupid enough to declare war on even one NATO nation, let alone half a dozen, which most likely would be what the troops would be made of. Let him. Let him get annihilated in war for once.

If Ukraine can't join NATO for 20 years then how would that be Russia declaring war on a NATO nation? Putin won't sit there nicely for years, he's broken every other agreement that's come his way so why would you think this would be different?

[Nymrohd]

If Ukraine can't join NATO for 20 years then how would that be Russia declaring war on a NATO nation?

It would not. It would be Russia killing French, Polish, British etc citizens.

But that would not happen cause you'd struggle to find a government in Europe outside MAYBE the Baltics and Poland who would survive sending troops there.

[Gabriel]

Why the fuck do you people still keep entertaining the notion that Ukraine can reach some sort of agreement with Russia that Russia will then honor and not just attack again?

Fucking goldfish memory I swear...

- - - Updated - - -

It would not. It would be Russia killing French, Polish, British etc citizens.

But that would not happen cause you'd struggle to find a government in Europe outside MAYBE the Baltics and Poland who would survive sending troops there.

And when Russia kills those Polish peacekeepers, the narrative will just be that: "well Poland shouldn't have sent their troops to posture on Russian land".

[Iphie]

If Ukraine can't join NATO for 20 years then how would that be Russia declaring war on a NATO nation? Putin won't sit there nicely for years, he's broken every other agreement that's come his way so why would you think this would be different?

You know the forward presence in the Baltics? it's specifically made up of a multinational force so that if russia invades troops from multiple NATO countries die in order to make sure art. 5 is honoured, the same would apply here.

That said, while it seems not as bad as feared, I'm pretty sure no one will agree with this.

[Azadina]

If Ukraine can't join NATO for 20 years then how would that be Russia declaring war on a NATO nation? Putin won't sit there nicely for years, he's broken every other agreement that's come his way so why would you think this would be different?

It would be different, because in order to break the contract, he would have to murder NATO troops. Yes, murder, unprovoked, against an established contract. How in the name of christ do you figure that would not be a declaration of war against the countries from which those troops are from?

[Dontrike]

It would be different, because in order to break the contract, he would have to murder NATO troops. Yes, murder, unprovoked, against an established contract. How in the name of christ do you figure that would not be a declaration of war against the countries from which those troops are from?

You can justify it all you want, I'm gonna bet on the obviously insane dictator that's killed over half a million of his own people for funsies and has no problem trying to further his ideals of more power.

[Wilian]

It would be different, because in order to break the contract, he would have to murder NATO troops. Yes, murder, unprovoked, against an established contract. How in the name of christ do you figure that would not be a declaration of war against the countries from which those troops are from?

Because we don't want to """escalate""" and will go on business as usual just as we do now when Russia pretty much openly and blatantly attacks our countries. I don't expect Europe to grow balls suddenly.

[Azadina]

You can justify it all you want, I'm gonna bet on the obviously insane dictator that's killed over half a million of his own people for funsies and has no problem trying to further his ideals of more power.

That's fine, let him. Maybe few million changes his mind, where half a million hasn't. If not, let's keep going then.

[Jessicka]

It would be different, because in order to break the contract, he would have to murder NATO troops. Yes, murder, unprovoked, against an established contract. How in the name of christ do you figure that would not be a declaration of war against the countries from which those troops are from?

Same way Israel does it in Lebanon?

[Iphie]

Same way Israel does it in Lebanon?

Not quite, as far as I know Israel hasn't killed NATO troops, just UN personel which is not the same and you know that.

[Jessicka]

Not quite, as far as I know Israel hasn't killed NATO troops, just UN personel which is not the same and you know that.

Well exactly, they'll go after the civilian staff and NGOs, to keep them in their bunkers then blow up equipment as they drive around.