Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Wilian]

Tell me, how exactly is Biden not letting Ukraine defend itself properly?

Alright, I'll bite. Considering western (our) support has been abysmal to the point that even North Korea can get more credit than us, where should this be started? We have given just enough support for Ukraine to barely survive. Every decision made has come at least year late from where it was necessary to make, from providing simple anti-tank weaponry to HIMARS to tanks to fighter jets to FINALLY ON VERGE OF THIRD YEAR OF WAR permission to actually target Russia. West, us, sadly led by US have shown limp dick levels of support and on every case so late that when it would've mattered, well that time had passed. There's one thing to say we're doing something, there's another saying we're doing enough. And we're doing pitiful.

I admit it angers me probably more than it should when people say we are already doing shit but the shit we're doing collectively matters fuck-all under current circumstances. US aid is drying, EU hasn't been able to build up any serious wartime industry in 3 years beyond outliers like Finland and other Nordics and shit is just getting worse by the moment.

[PhaelixWW]

Alright, I'll bite. Considering western (our) support has been abysmal to the point that even North Korea can get more credit than us, where should this be started?

First sentence and you've already lost the plot. North Korea gets more credit? Hardly. Aside from the fact that that claim is just pure bullshit, North Korea was paid for what they sent to Russia. That wasn't aid, that was a transaction.

We have given just enough support for Ukraine to barely survive. Every decision made has come at least year late from where it was necessary to make, from providing simple anti-tank weaponry to HIMARS to tanks to fighter jets...

The key word there is "given". This isn't anything required by a treaty or any other agreement, it's not a loan, this is aid. Aid, almost by definition, is never going to be everything that the recipient needs. And in the context of a war, where there's a not-insignificant risk of being drawn into a larger conflict, it's important that such aid be seen as absolutely necessary to avoid defeat, rather than punitive to the opponent. That's going to have an unavoidable delaying effect.

...to FINALLY ON VERGE OF THIRD YEAR OF WAR permission to actually target Russia.

For the umpteenth time, Ukraine has never required permission to target Russia. The only restriction imposed by the US was to not use US weapons technology to do so. And I think everyone acknowledges that the US has been quietly helping Ukraine to advance their own weapons research/production so that they can loophole that public position. Not to mention the troves of data on Russian forces that the West gives to Ukraine.

West, us, sadly led by US have shown limp dick levels of support and on every case so late that when it would've mattered, well that time had passed.

Yeah, okay, you're just bullshitting, I guess. This is a garbage take.

[alach]

They just annulled the Romanian presidential elections, due to, wait for it... russian election interference.

Romanian court cancels presidential election in unprecedented political earthquake

"The electoral process for the election of the president of Romania will be resumed in its entirety, with the government required to set a new date for the election of the president of Romania as well as a new calendar program for carrying out the necessary actions," the court said in a statement on Friday.

The court said the decision to annul the first round was due to procedural issues and the declassification of the secret reports by the Romanian intelligence services showing Russian involvement in influencing voters through an anti-Western propaganda campaign supporting Georgescu.

This was after a pro-Nato, pro EU, pro Ukraine support, won against a kremlin friendly party for Parliamentary elections last week. It wasn't by that much, but it was still a majority.

Also, wanted to add, in response to @Corvus in the other thread regarding Russia.

What troops?

November was the most costly month of the war for Russia in terms of average daily dead and injured: UK intel

....
Citing the Ukrainian General Staff, it said that Russia suffered 45,680 casualties in November, up from 41,980 in October, with a daily average of 1,523.
....

[Shadowferal]

Russian marine surrenders in Kursk Oblast, reveals what’s happening in Russia’s army

"I signed a contract, then after the contract, they sent us to Kursk for training. In Kursk, we spent two days preparing—two days building a bakery, two days cleaning the area. Overall, there was zero preparation. They shot off two magazines and that’s it,” the Russian soldier said.

He added that the attitude of Russian commanders toward their soldiers is “very bad.”

"The commander says: Go. There’s no turning back. If you go back, we’ll wipe you out right away,” the POW explained about how Russians are sent on storming missions.

The Russian soldier said he realized that his only chance to stay alive was to surrender.

On Aug. 12, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy confirmed the Defense Forces’ operation in Kursk Oblast, Russia for the first time.

On Oct. 10, Commander-in-Chief of the Ukrainian Armed Forces Oleksandr Syrskyi reported that Russia had transferred 50,000 soldiers to Kursk Oblast from other fronts.

The Center for Countering Disinformation at Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council denied reports that Ukraine’s Defense Forces had been instructed to hold Kursk Oblast until the inauguration of Donald Trump.

No real surprises here.
However focus needs to stay here. The Syrian shitshow is a distraction encouraged by Russia’s participation. Putin’s little mouthpiece calls for ‘immediate ceasefire’ in Ukraine

[Jessicka]

Alright, I'll bite. Considering western (our) support has been abysmal to the point that even North Korea can get more credit than us, where should this be started? We have given just enough support for Ukraine to barely survive. Every decision made has come at least year late from where it was necessary to make, from providing simple anti-tank weaponry to HIMARS to tanks to fighter jets to FINALLY ON VERGE OF THIRD YEAR OF WAR permission to actually target Russia. West, us, sadly led by US have shown limp dick levels of support and on every case so late that when it would've mattered, well that time had passed. There's one thing to say we're doing something, there's another saying we're doing enough. And we're doing pitiful.

I admit it angers me probably more than it should when people say we are already doing shit but the shit we're doing collectively matters fuck-all under current circumstances. US aid is drying, EU hasn't been able to build up any serious wartime industry in 3 years beyond outliers like Finland and other Nordics and shit is just getting worse by the moment.

At this point, what more would you do? We're pretty much at a point now where the next level of escalation is putting NATO troops in the firing line, firstly with aircraft then with troops on the ground. The battlefield has been evolving and strategy changing fast, we're at a point where its about glide bombs and drones, not troops and artillery which is where it was a year ago. NATO and arms suppliers just haven't caught up with how its being fought and what's needed, Ukraine have themselves stormed well ahead of us on drone development and production because they know what works and just have to get on with it. We're still flailing around developing that stuff.

[Wilian]

At this point, what more would you do?

This is easy. First step is to make sanctions work. It took 3 years for US to finally sanction Gazprombank in a way that actually had an effect. And still one major bank is left out of sanctions and let in the monetary system. Russia has been making massive bank through having both access and means, some of that money coming directly from Europe in non-insignificant numbers. Second step is to make manufacturing and resource sanctions work. Immediatly after the first sanctions began exports to Kirgisia, Kazakshtan, Uzbekistan etc. rose by hundreds of percents essentially overnight and has remained at that level. It didn't happen because those countries somehow went under economic purchaching and growth boom out of nowhere. Sanction every single secondary country that supports Russia avoid sanctions with same sanctions as Russia faces. Third step is to sanction China properly who blatantly send both dual use and plain military use products to Russia. So far we've been willingly turning to look other way with occassional "Oh no that's wrong" condemnations because we value Chinese trade too high for our own good and essentially sovereignity to decide how to deal with Russia.

Current sanctions, outside of the banking ones have been a practical joke played by the west and the desired effect, as in crippling Russian economy so it cannot continue war has failed to produce the intended effect. Unless of course intended effect is to help Russia collapse some arbitary timeline 5 to 10 years in future after waging genocidial war for as long.

That's only the bare minimum that can be done on the sanctions front. Some European countries also still feed Russia directly with billions of dollars for usage of their gas. That has to be stopped one way or another but political will and whimpering for doing that is preventing action.

We're pretty much at a point now where the next level of eScALAtioN is putting NATO troops in the firing line, firstly with aircraft then with troops on the ground.

No, we are still far from that step and that would not be escalation even if it happened, it would be matching Russia's escalation. We are pathetically making red lines for ourselves while Russia claims our mere breathing east is escalation and quotes like this only strenghten their rhethoric. Regardless, what should've happened from day 1 is that NATO and EU secure Ukrainian airspace by partaking in interception of Russian missiles and to soothe the cowardly "direct engagement" position one could slap that planes aren't allowed closer than 50km from the active hotspots. And that's bare minimum, protecting Ukraine from continuous barrages of drones and missiles.

What should have also happened is that NATO and EU take the defense of Ukrainian borders against Belarus and Russian stolen colony of Transistrinia as well as coastal lines with live troops, yes. Live troops. So that Ukraine could send those forces down to do actual warfare. It would've have been up to Russia whetever they continue their escalations by attacking non-hostile NATO and EU troops border patrolling and securing. That again, should've been bare minimum and enacted from the day Russia retreated from Kiev offensive.

The battlefield has been evolving and strategy changing fast, we're at a point where its about glide bombs and drones, not troops and artillery which is where it was a year ago.

But it hasn't though. What has changed is the reporting because now Ukrainian cities are under daily barrages when it used to be a bit more rare for large scale aerial assaults to happen. After Russia obtained Iran's ballistic missiles and drones & North Korea's artillery shells and ballistic missiles they've managed to accelerate their air campaign. The war itself is being fought on the ground right now, with artillery, with FVP drones, with guns and with troops and right now Ukraine is losing. Losing very,very slowly but losing. They need especially 155 shells, pipes and rocket systems with enough medium and long range ammunition to project power in battlefield which they lack. We are still in the slump that was caused by US 6 month delay and even up until then Ukraine had been provided with just bare enough to sustain, not take control of the situation.

NATO and arms suppliers just haven't caught up with how its being fought and what's needed, Ukraine have themselves stormed well ahead of us on drone development and production because they know what works and just have to get on with it. We're still flailing around developing that stuff.

We know what is needed, we are being informed by Ukraine what is needed on almoust daily basis. There's no confusion what is the sort of stuff they need most. Right yesterday Zelensky responded in Biden's and Blinken's demand of lowering mobilization age (which I do agree with because Ukraine is also lacking replenisment numbers) that there's no point to lower the age of mobilization because currently they aren't able to arm their existing brigades sufficiently.

The reason we are flailing (outside of Poland, Finland and rest of Nordics) is because there's no political will to direct money for military production, not even the already announced production, when the barbarians are already at the gate due to economic situation & seemingly effective Russian propaganda and paid political agitators driving some of the support into Russia's direction or at least away from Ukrainian support considering how some of the elections have been going.

Regardless, we have the capability, we have the potential capacity but we lack the political will to actually aid Ukraine into victory rather than worsening stalemate.

I also skipped, for now how about all the decisions about the given aid, anti-tank weaponry, tanks themselves, modern fighter jets etc. should've been made before the summer attack and in numbers & in good time to be ready for it but that'd be a whole post in itself about our failures.

[Jessicka]

@Wilian that’s certainly enlightening, especially on the sanctions.

Just to be clear, when I say escalation, I don’t mean it in a sense of antagonising Putin, I don’t give a shit about that’s since he’s played his entire hand. I just means in terms of, preferring not to have our own troops on the front line, though in many ways since it would almost certainly hasten the end of the conflict I can definitely see merit to it. I’m not personally entirely opposed to it, it just generally accept it wouldn’t be popular.

[alach]

Heres an intriguing one.
As the world watches Syria and Isreal, much like the marvel universe, they are all connected...

Ukrainian operatives aided Syrian rebels with drones, Washington Post reports

WASHINGTON, Dec 11 (Reuters) - Syrian fighters received about 150 drones as well as other covert support from Ukrainian intelligence operatives last month, weeks ahead of the rebels' advance that toppled Bashar al-Assad over the weekend, according to the Washington Post.
Citing unnamed sources familiar with Ukrainian military activities, the Post late on Tuesday said Ukrainian intelligence sent about 20 drone operators and about 150 first-person-view drones about four to five weeks ago to aid Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS).

The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

[Gaidax]

@Wilian that’s certainly enlightening, especially on the sanctions.

Just to be clear, when I say escalation, I don’t mean it in a sense of antagonising Putin, I don’t give a shit about that’s since he’s played his entire hand. I just means in terms of, preferring not to have our own troops on the front line, though in many ways since it would almost certainly hasten the end of the conflict I can definitely see merit to it. I’m not personally entirely opposed to it, it just generally accept it wouldn’t be popular.

Putin most definitely did not play all his hand, there is much more where it came from ranging from hitting key government offices and locations and going through to using unconventional non-nuclear weapons. People really underestimate Russia here, and I was telling here for a few years to not do that.

It sure makes great memes and likes from the echo chamber, but reality is in the end that despite all their fuckups they still do they same shit they did in WW2 - bury enemies under their own soldiers' corpses.

US/West pulled a masterstroke by baiting Putin into this - Russia with this got a decade or more of progress wiped out. But I do think policies last 2 years were less than ideal, which led to the difficult position Ukraine is in now. It was a quite cynical position of giving just enough support to keep Ukraine's head just above the water, but knowingly not enough to win or settle.

Maybe Trump will finally cut crap and proceed to the "settle" part, because I don't see Ukraine winning this - at least in the capacity they hope for.

[Belize]

US/West pulled a masterstroke by baiting Putin into this -

Mmm yes, it's all ThE wEsT's fault for *check notes* Russia invading a neighboring country.

Obviously. There was nothing Russia could do to stop themselves from being manipulated into an invasion. They just wanted to stay home, brew vodka and eat turnips, but tHe WeSt baited them into launching a 3 day quickly approaching 3 year special operation to conquer Ukraine.

[Jessicka]

Putin most definitely did not play all his hand, there is much more where it came from ranging from hitting key government offices and locations and going through to using unconventional non-nuclear weapons. People really underestimate Russia here, and I was telling here for a few years to not do that.

It sure makes great memes and likes from the echo chamber, but reality is in the end that despite all their fuckups they still do they same shit they did in WW2 - bury enemies under their own soldiers' corpses.

US/West pulled a masterstroke by baiting Putin into this - Russia with this got a decade or more of progress wiped out. But I do think policies last 2 years were less than ideal, which led to the difficult position Ukraine is in now. It was a quite cynical position of giving just enough support to keep Ukraine's head just above the water, but knowingly not enough to win or settle.

Maybe Trump will finally cut crap and proceed to the "settle" part, because I don't see Ukraine winning this - at least in the capacity they hope for.

ThEy sTiLl hAvE tWo cArDs, nOoKs AnD TrUmP!

[Gabriel]

Putin most definitely did not play all his hand, there is much more where it came from ranging from hitting key government offices and locations and going through to using unconventional non-nuclear weapons. People really underestimate Russia here, and I was telling here for a few years to not do that.

It sure makes great memes and likes from the echo chamber, but reality is in the end that despite all their fuckups they still do they same shit they did in WW2 - bury enemies under their own soldiers' corpses.

US/West pulled a masterstroke by baiting Putin into this - Russia with this got a decade or more of progress wiped out. But I do think policies last 2 years were less than ideal, which led to the difficult position Ukraine is in now. It was a quite cynical position of giving just enough support to keep Ukraine's head just above the water, but knowingly not enough to win or settle.

Maybe Trump will finally cut crap and proceed to the "settle" part, because I don't see Ukraine winning this - at least in the capacity they hope for.

This is just fiction. You are confusing Russia's inability to hit those targets with them pulling their punches.

[Wilian]

Putin most definitely did not play all his hand, there is much more where it came from ranging from hitting key government offices and locations and going through to using unconventional non-nuclear weapons. People really underestimate Russia here, and I was telling here for a few years to not do that.

On the contrary, never contribute to Ruzzian that what can be explained as incompetence. They haven't been "targeting" key locations because they don't want to, they have, those missiles and drones have been shut down. From day 1 of the ruzzian escalation of the war in 2022 (that they started in 2014) they tried to eliminate Ukrainian governmental body, at that time by special forces. There were nightly shootouts with Ukrainian security forces and ruzzian SF in central Kyiv within first week.

US/West pulled a masterstroke by baiting Putin into this - Russia with this got a decade or more of progress wiped out. But I do think policies last 2 years were less than ideal, which led to the difficult position Ukraine is in now.

This has absolutely shit-all to do with "western plotting" and everything to do with Ruzzian imperialistic goals over their former colonies and colonies they still possess and brutally genocided when they tried to be free (Such as Chechnya). Ruzzia has kept military presence in nearly all of their former colonies and has proven to strongarm those who have even a whiff of having actual independence from their ruling. It is then ironic that the only country that basically keeps Ruzzia afloat, China, is also undermining Russia by providing security guarantees to former Ruzzian colonies like Kazakshtan AGAINST Russia.

It was a quite cynical position of giving just enough support to keep Ukraine's head just above the water, but knowingly not enough to win or settle.

Has nothing to do with cynicism. Has everything to do with limp dick fear of escalation and internal economic politics.

Maybe Trump will finally cut crap and proceed to the "settle" part, because I don't see Ukraine winning this - at least in the capacity they hope for.

We are all aware Trump is more than likely willing to bow down to his authoritarian idols like Putin and give them what they want. The only hope here is that Putin somehow insults Trump and Trump in narcissistic rage does the right thing for the wrong reasons, aka revenge and floods Ukraine with weapons similiar way they did with Israel, difference being is that then weapons would be used to defend against genocide versus actually helping to commit one.

[Gaidax]

ThEy sTiLl hAvE tWo cArDs, nOoKs AnD TrUmP!

Quite frankly, when people respond like this it is not doing them any favors.

Do you have some actual counterarguments instead of just clown script?

[Easo]

After the November (which did not reflect here because why would it?) this Reddit thread and comments in it makes a good laugh at the ridiculous propaganda the supposedly enlightened West is receiving and accepting:

https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineRuss...sias_pokrovsk/

All this crap is best explained by the mythical North Korean soldiers in Russia:

1. They are all dead.
2. They are not involved at all.
3. Russian troops shot at them.
4. They run away.
5. They watched porn too much.

And yet more than a month later still not a single actual piece of evidence. Fucking lol.

[Makabreska]

Quite frankly, when people respond like this it is not doing them any favors.

Do you have some actual counterarguments instead of just clown script?

Other peeps here gave you them. Why focus on this reply?

[Mayhem]

Other peeps here gave you them. Why focus on this reply?

Because it's Gaidax, Gaidax doesn't answer hard questions.

[Gaidax]

Other peeps here gave you them. Why focus on this reply?

Because last 3 replies to me on that matter were nothing more than infantile nonsense. Broken capitalization responses will impress kids on Twitter/YouTube, but they don't really impress me. As a matter of fact, I blocked that person because I have no patience for dealing with people who converse in Twitterspeak.

As I said, time and time again - Russia has more where it came from, the simplest escalation they did not try yet could be literally blowing up the parliament building and they are fully capable of doing it if they so desire.

People try to shadowbox me but take note I never said "nooks" as one of the responses above claimed - in fact, I stated time and time again, that kind of thing is almost assuredly not on the table, however I do point out - that is not the only unconventional weapons in existence, there is plenty other options on the way there.

[Neufab]

US/West pulled a masterstroke by baiting Putin into this - Russia with this got a decade or more of progress wiped out.

So you're saying putin is a complete idiot who keeps taking the bait instead of you know withdrawing his brownshirts back to russia and thus ending the war?

Vatnik is as stupid as vatniks are.

[Gabriel]

Because last 3 replies to me on that matter were nothing more than infantile nonsense. Broken capitalization responses will impress kids on Twitter/YouTube, but they don't really impress me. As a matter of fact, I blocked that person because I have no patience for dealing with people who converse in Twitterspeak.

As I said, time and time again - Russia has more where it came from, the simplest escalation they did not try yet could be literally blowing up the parliament building and they are fully capable of doing it if they so desire.

People try to shadowbox me but take note I never said "nooks" as one of the responses above claimed - in fact, I stated time and time again, that kind of thing is almost assuredly not on the table, however I do point out - that is not the only unconventional weapons in existence, there is plenty other options on the way there.

What makes you think Russia has this capability?