Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Corvus]

Driving 800,000 russian troops out of Ukraine would led to a lot of casualties on the scale that hasn't been experienced in Europe for a long time. Western governments tend to nit like large amounts of casualties any more.

[Lahis]

Driving 800,000 russian troops out of Ukraine would led to a lot of casualties on the scale that hasn't been experienced in Europe for a long time. Western governments tend to nit like large amounts of casualties any more.

We have to drive those Russian troops out from some European country at some point. Arguably it is easier to do now that they have already suffered great material losses in this war. It will be much more difficult in few years after they have had time to restock and resupply.

[alach]

Hate to be a cyncic, but its all about messaging.
trump just won an election to become one of the most powerful people in the world by hocking cheap sneakers and spouting mostly obvious falsehoods after spending decades treating his supporters like dogshit.
putin just mobolized nearly his entire country to turn against their neighbour and support an invasion into a sovereign country because of falsehoods that are continued to be spread on these boards even today.
It wouldn't take much to get Europeans on board with a physical engagement with russia, and the politicans wouldn't even have to lie. russia is a threat, in many, many, ways, lets finally do something about it. Or, howabout, the russian people are being oppressed by a tyrant, they want freedom, and we can do that. I don't know, I'm just tired of seeing the other side win because we cant message the same level as them.

We have to drive those Russian troops out from some European country at some point. Arguably it is easier to do now that they have already suffered great material losses in this war. It will be much more difficult in few years after they have had time to restock and resupply.

Exactly.

[Nymrohd]

Hate to be a cyncic, but its all about messaging.
trump just won an election to become one of the most powerful people in the world by hocking cheap sneakers and spouting mostly obvious falsehoods after spending decades treating his supporters like dogshit.
putin just mobolized nearly his entire country to turn against their neighbour and support an invasion into a sovereign country because of falsehoods that are continued to be spread on these boards even today.
It wouldn't take much to get Europeans on board with a physical engagement with russia, and the politicans wouldn't even have to lie. russia is a threat, in many, many, ways, lets finally do something about it. Or, howabout, the russian people are being oppressed by a tyrant, they want freedom, and we can do that. I don't know, I'm just tired of seeing the other side win because we cant message the same level as them.

It doesn't help that there are substantial pockets of citizens all over Europe that prefer Russia to their own countries by now because Russia hates immigrants and trans people just as much as they do. This is nearly two decades of uncontrolled media narratives bearing fruit all over the West.

[Timester]

It doesn't help that there are substantial pockets of citizens all over Europe that prefer Russia to their own countries by now because Russia hates immigrants and trans people just as much as they do. This is nearly two decades of uncontrolled media narratives bearing fruit all over the West.

Never undermine European countries nationalism and how Europeans people tendency to unite when someone outside tries to dictate something else. After all, Europe is the birthbasket of nationalism.

Lets ditch the fearmongering of a failed nation that is stucked on a war without logistics and industry to support it. This is Russia's Afghanistan all over again.

[Corvus]

Politicians love kicking the can down the road for someone else to deal with in the future.

[Nymrohd]

Never undermine European countries nationalism and how Europeans people tendency to unite when someone outside tries to dictate something else. After all, Europe is the birthbasket of nationalism.

Lets ditch the fearmongering of a failed nation that is stucked on a war without logistics and industry to support it. This is Russia's Afghanistan all over again.

The thing is, the nationalists are all pro Russia right now

[Timester]

The thing is, the nationalists are all pro Russia right now

No, they really aren't, those aren't nationalists. Those are anti-EU opportunists. Nationalists are nationalists, their country first. If/when they get in power, they will do anything to prove their countries are better than the others.

We can't ignore centuries of history just because a weak fake "superpower" (regional power at best, now not even that as China is eating pretty much all Central Asia) can't handle the fact that failed and keeps failing.

[Elder Millennial]

No, they really aren't, those aren't nationalists. Those are anti-EU opportunists. Nationalists are nationalists, their country first. If/when they get in power, they will do anything to prove their countries are better than the others.

We can't ignore centuries of history just because a weak fake "superpower" (regional power at best, now not even that as China is eating pretty much all Central Asia) can't handle the fact that failed and keeps failing.

Oh buddy. You're doing the European equivalent of the American pro-Ukraine right wingers who were saying that Biden is a weakling and when Trump will be president he will show the Russians who is boss.

Then Trump instantly folded and negotiated everything away even before negotiating anything. The Russians are literally belly laughing at us.

That European nationalist who will stand up to Russia is a literal figment of your imagination. 1. Because they institutionally and wholesale sold themselves out to Russia, they are literal bitches either astro-turfed by Moscow or directly propped up by Moscow like Orban, Fico, LePen and the likes 2. Nationalism as an ideology lacks the means needed to deal with Russia. Fact is European nations with a few exceptions like France and the UK do not have the means to be any kind of threat to Russia. Poland is getting there too, but Russia is a problem that needs to be dealt with at an EU level, and European nationalists are literally ideologically incapable of doing this because it goes against their fundamental values and beliefs.

Yes there are exceptions, like the aforementioned Poland, the Baltics and Scandinavia but if you are expecting to find an Italian, German, Spanish, French nationalist who is willing to do anything about Russia...you are deluding yourself. Also keep in mind, these are the countries +UK that can realistically make a meaningful difference here.

The only people in Europe who have done and are capable of doing anything about Russia are the normie centrist pro-EU libs. Nationalists will suck Kremlin cock, swallow the load and say "Please, may I have some more."

[Timester]

Oh buddy. You're doing the European equivalent of the American pro-Ukraine right wingers who were saying that Biden is a weakling and when Trump will be president he will show the Russians who is boss.

Then Trump instantly folded and negotiated everything away even before negotiating anything. The Russians are literally belly laughing at us.

That European nationalist who will stand up to Russia is a literal figment of your imagination. 1. Because they institutionally and wholesale sold themselves out to Russia, they are literal bitches either astro-turfed by Moscow or directly propped up by Moscow like Orban, Fico, LePen and the likes 2. Nationalism as an ideology lacks the means needed to deal with Russia. Fact is European nations with a few exceptions like France and the UK do not have the means to be any kind of threat to Russia. Poland is getting there too, but Russia is a problem that needs to be dealt with at an EU level, and European nationalists are literally ideologically incapable of doing this because it goes against their fundamental values and beliefs.

Yes there are exceptions, like the aforementioned Poland, the Baltics and Scandinavia but if you are expecting to find an Italian, German, Spanish, French nationalist who is willing to do anything about Russia...you are deluding yourself. Also keep in mind, these are the countries +UK that can realistically make a meaningful difference here.

The only people in Europe who have done and are capable of doing anything about Russia are the normie centrist pro-EU libs. Nationalists will suck Kremlin cock, swallow the load and say "Please, may I have some more."

It's the complete opposite, history prove over and over again. This is nothing more than 1980s communist european parties that where directly in control from Kremlin.

Main example? Durão Barroso, the guy was a diehard leftwing party member and then look at his history. Yes, I'm that fucking old.

[Gorsameth]

No, they really aren't, those aren't nationalists. Those are anti-EU opportunists. Nationalists are nationalists, their country first. If/when they get in power, they will do anything to prove their countries are better than the others.

We can't ignore centuries of history just because a weak fake "superpower" (regional power at best, now not even that as China is eating pretty much all Central Asia) can't handle the fact that failed and keeps failing.

What? Nationalists have never been tying to actually demonstratively proof they are better, its all just rhetoric. Say your better is all that is required.
Do nationalists start massively spending on healthcare and education to become the best country in the world to live in? No, never.

They crawl back in their little shell, stick their fingers in their ears and go 'lalalala'. They will all of them happily sell out Ukraine to Russia.

[alach]

I shouldn't have started a debate about hypotheticals, its all rather pointless in the end, and I apologize.
But I will say, as someone that knows nearly nothing but middle school education on European history, that I agree with Timester here.

Nothing unites a people more than an outside threat.
Just a month ago Canada was deeply divided. Now after trumps threats, the country is united, angry, and boycotting American products. Like 70% of them.

Also, for Poland, the population would get behind putting boots on the ground if they were told that the refugees would go home. Polands has the vast majority of the refugees from this war, and its a burden on the country. They could sell that to the people, honestly.

[Timester]

Do nationalists start massively spending on healthcare and education to become the best country in the world to live in? No, never.

You are mixing nationalism with economical and social politics. Nationalism is nothing more than enlarged tribalism.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing unites a people more than an outside threat.

It's human nature, it's how it has been since ancient history. Ancient egyptian sandles had the libyans (their enemies) carved on the sole.

That's exactly how Putin sells internally the Ukraine war, that he is fighting against the entire NATO that wants to destroy Russia. The fear of the outside threat is the most unifying act that exists.


That's why fearmongering should be laughed, because if we look at facts Russia is stalemated for 3 years against a nation "in ranks" (ranks are BS, reality shows it) is ten times weaker than them. It's the exact same repeat of the 1980s about the Afghan War.


Anyway, the talks:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...n-latest-news/


A bunch of nothingburgers, except Russia saying that Ukraine has the right to join the EU.

[Nymrohd]

I shouldn't have started a debate about hypotheticals, its all rather pointless in the end, and I apologize.
But I will say, as someone that knows nearly nothing but middle school education on European history, that I agree with Timester here.

Nothing unites a people more than an outside threat.
Just a month ago Canada was deeply divided. Now after trumps threats, the country is united, angry, and boycotting American products. Like 70% of them.

Also, for Poland, the population would get behind putting boots on the ground if they were told that the refugees would go home. Polands has the vast majority of the refugees from this war, and its a burden on the country. They could sell that to the people, honestly.

I don't think most people in Europe see Russia as a direct threat though. They are certainly a threat to Ukraine and very likely to the Baltics but good luck convincing someone in Western Europe that Russia is a threat to them. The US absolutely is a threat to Canada, they share a massive border and very deep economic ties. But to a nationalist in Italy or France, Russia hates the same things they do. The issue is that the people likely to be nationalists are also the people likely to be bigots.

[Vampiregenesis]

I'm pretty sure that the re-elected dems in 5 years will attempt a round 2 with Russia especially if the Greenland/Canada/Panama plan fails now, the USA see Russia as a big rival in natural resource dominance and they are committed to win, they just take a break now, reorganize and they will attack later. Route and everyone else is spamming that Russia will be a threat in 5 years, in fact it is THEM who will again provoke it hard in 5 years.

What surprise me is that Germany is not attempting to fix their relation with Russia, it seems that Germany wants Ukraine to win in the end or maybe they wait for the new cancellor to change that?

[PhaelixWW]

I'm pretty sure that the re-elected dems in 5 years will attempt a round 2 with Russia especially if the Greenland/Canada/Panama plan fails now, the USA see Russia as a big rival in natural resource dominance and they are committed to win, they just take a break now, reorganize and they will attack later. Route and everyone else is spamming that Russia will be a threat in 5 years, in fact it is THEM who will again provoke it hard in 5 years.

Nobody provoked Russia.

This is all about Putin's narcissism and greed.

[Mekh]

I'm pretty sure that the re-elected dems in 5 years will attempt a round 2 with Russia especially if the Greenland/Canada/Panama plan fails now, the USA see Russia as a big rival in natural resource dominance and they are committed to win, they just take a break now, reorganize and they will attack later. Route and everyone else is spamming that Russia will be a threat in 5 years, in fact it is THEM who will again provoke it hard in 5 years.

What surprise me is that Germany is not attempting to fix their relation with Russia, it seems that Germany wants Ukraine to win in the end or maybe they wait for the new cancellor to change that?

Anecdotal but I haven't seen a single Pro Russia/Dictated Peace demonstration in Germany that had more than maybe 20 people.

[hellhamster]

Russia wants NATO to disavow their 2008 promise about Ukraine receiving membership.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2025-02-18/

[PhaelixWW]

Russia wants NATO to disavow their 2008 promise about Ukraine receiving membership.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2025-02-18/

Why are we even bothering to report this like it's news? They've literally never wanted it any other way.

[Nymrohd]

Why are we even bothering to report this like it's news? They've literally never wanted it any other way.

Maybe we should find an alternative security guarantee for Ukraine anyway. Maybe France could do a defense agreement and store some nukes there.